Why is natural immunity ignored?

[SoOvethis]

I have seen several posts where people seem to think there is practically no protection from having caught Covid naturally and keep wondering why. But I think the reason is because there is never anything positive in the media about catching COVID naturally and low reinfection rates. I happened to come across an article today which I found surprising as that pointed out some statistics that show how unlikely you are to catch Covid twice.
That matches my real world experience too, I don’t know of anyone who has had confirmed Covid twice. And everyone that I now know who have caught recently are double jabbed but haven’t had covid naturally before.
If someone can prove that they had covid before or that they still have antibodies why can’t that be considered as “safe” as having the vaccinations? Especially as apparently the viral load is lower in those who have been reinfected.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/23/phe-upgrade-delta-variants-risk-level-due-to-reinfection-risk

This headline is totally misleading to what the article is actually telling you!

“ In light of the findings, PHE upgraded its risk assessment on “immunity after natural infection” from amber to red for the Delta variant. Reinfections remain a rarity though, accounting for only 1.2% of the 83,197 cases analysed.”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9834687/Proof-Covid-turning-mild-illness-Survivors-reinfected-lower-viral-loads.html

“ Last April, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) began examining people who had been struck down with Covid to determine the risk of them catching it again.

Of the 19,470 people they studied between April 2020 and July 2021, 195 went on to catch Covid for a second time.

This equated to just one per cent of people being reinfected. ”

“ Only a quarter of those participants who were reinfected had a high viral load — considered to be a score below 30.”

“ The finding was based on real-world analysis of the third wave in England and looked at about 80,000 Delta cases.

But even with the increased risk posed by the mutant strain, the numbers of Britons getting reinfected still remains low.

Of the Delta cases PHE analysed over the past three months, just 1.2 per cent were identified as possible reinfections.”

(Possibly reinfection btw…interesting choice of word)

@SoOvethis this is from the British medical journal:

‘ Adults infected with covid-19 three weeks after receiving one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine were 38-49% less likely to pass the virus on to their household contacts than people who were unvaccinated, a preprint released by Public Health England has shown.1’

This is from april 2021. Vaccination doesn’t always prevent breakthrough infections but if you catch it (even if you’ve already had covid) then you are less likely to give it to other people.

The vast majority of our population being vaccinated is our only hope of a semblance of pre pandemic life returning. I’m 28 not at personal risk from covid, but this is about society and doing what is best for others.

I already have no choice about the hep B vaccine etc, I had that as a condition of starting medical school.

I wonder if in future we will know more of the genetic and other factors about why some of us fare so badly and why others barely notice Covid

I think pre existing t cell immunity /reactivity could be playing a part in why so many are asymptomatic. Pre existing immunity to sars was found in blood samples taken years before sars existed. Scientists think this is likely due to previous exposure to similar pathogens.
Unfortunately the majority seem to be focused on studying antibodies which are only ever transient. As PP said, t-cell immunity is what we should be focusing on.

bumblymummy The point is that you don’t know the nature of natural immunity you have to Covid and the time it persists. Mine persisted for at least 8 months, it was over a year when I tested negative for antibodies but a friend found 5 months after she was ill that they had disappeared. It’s a gamble to rely on it but a double jab makes it much less of a gamble.

I would love to embrace the idea that exposure to a SARS like illness in February 2003 (they now know it originated in Guangdong in Autumn 2002 and spread along travel links ) in Shanghai had given me natural immunity and was the reason that I was ill asymptomatically or that it is a genetic predisposition (all my family have had it mildly ) or it is the supplements I take (the study I am on has found a correlation between taking Vitamin D and Omega 3 supplements but none of the others, including high dose VitC) However there isn’t the evidence and so I will stick with the jabs which I am quite satisfied with the evidence is safe.

My brush with Cancer has taught me that there are no end of people claiming the benefits of natural immunity but in the end it was definitely the science and a greater understanding of the benefits of hormone treatment that saved my life.

@Toty

I wonder if in future we will know more of the genetic and other factors about why some of us fare so badly and why others barely notice Covid

I think pre existing t cell immunity /reactivity could be playing a part in why so many are asymptomatic. Pre existing immunity to sars was found in blood samples taken years before sars existed. Scientists think this is likely due to previous exposure to similar pathogens.
Unfortunately the majority seem to be focused on studying antibodies which are only ever transient. As PP said, t-cell immunity is what we should be focusing on.

I remember reading a paper on that, yes. I am very interested as to why I was asymptomatic since I am not that well and have an autoimmune disease, so did wonder whether I've had a past infection that caused some cross-reactivity and protected me, or perhaps my innate immune system is particularly reactive. I do think T cell immunity is the key.

@Emilyontmoor . I am now part of a study looking for the genetic / lifestyle indicators for getting Covid mildly / asymptomatically

Fascinating! Do you know more of the specifics of what they are looking for?

@Medstudent12

Doctor here so exposed to covid much more than general population. I might have had covid twice. Face to face mask less conversation with a positive covid patient for over an hour before they would test staff early March 2020, was ill with very bad cough. Also could have just been a cough. Confirmed positive in December 2020.

I know multiple members of staff who tested positive in spring and then again autumn/winter, it’s not unheard of. There’s no proof yet that immunity lasts over 6 months, we’ve not had time to do the studies yet.

There’s plenty of evidence saying that it lasts over 6 months. Lots of info here:

www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-06/Duration-of%20protective-immunity-evidence-summary_22-June-2021.pdf

Crunchy It’s this one covid.genomicc.org/resources/files/REACT-GE-Study-Participant-Information-Sheet.pdf

I too assumed I was at high risk of more severe disease but this virus is weird in the way it affects people to varying degrees, which is why I think it is dangerous to make assumptions about any aspect of it until more is understood.

Genome U.K. are the only organisation in the world who are looking at SNPs, small particles on our DNA, to see whether there is a correlation with healthcare outcomes. It is a good place to put your DNA, rather than give it to businesses like ancestry U.K. who use genetic astrology as a cover for sell it on for a lot of money

@Emilyontmoor
How did you get on to the study?

Interesting, thanks Emilyontmoor

Genome U.K. are the only organisation in the world who are looking at SNPs, small particles on our DNA, to see whether there is a correlation with healthcare outcomes. It is a good place to put your DNA, rather than give it to businesses like ancestry U.K. who use genetic astrology as a cover for sell it on for a lot of money

Is it just me, but I feel a prickle of concern that the NHS might hold all our DNA in future. And whilst it sounds very cutting edge and full of the hope that people's diseases can be better managed, I don't know that I'm happy with that idea, considering the other data they will also hold.

And yeah, not a fan of 'genetic astrology', LOL.

@CrunchyCarrot

Interesting, thanks Emilyontmoor

Genome U.K. are the only organisation in the world who are looking at SNPs, small particles on our DNA, to see whether there is a correlation with healthcare outcomes. It is a good place to put your DNA, rather than give it to businesses like ancestry U.K. who use genetic astrology as a cover for sell it on for a lot of money

Is it just me, but I feel a prickle of concern that the NHS might hold all our DNA in future. And whilst it sounds very cutting edge and full of the hope that people's diseases can be better managed, I don't know that I'm happy with that idea, considering the other data they will also hold.

And yeah, not a fan of 'genetic astrology', LOL.

But first you'd need to take part in a genetic/genome-wise study @CrunchyCarrot for there to be the possibility of this happening? (Or pay loads to 23 and me )

Ds 2 aged 14 caught it twice with more than a six month gap, confirmed by PCR test both times. NHS England have contacted him for more info. Both times he wasn’t especially ill, cough, sniffly nose but after the second episode he acquired an awful ear infection and needed antibiotics.

But first you'd need to take part in a genetic/genome-wise study @CrunchyCarrot for there to be the possibility of this happening?

At the moment, yes. But the future beckons...

@bumbleymummy

Both of my previous posts to *@mrex* irt the nature paper.

Well if you've had your covid infection in the last 9 months, you can call it good news, for however many months remain. It's extremely clear that natural immunity wanes with different variants more than vaccine immunity, and therefore that getting a jab improves immunity regardless of whether someone has had covid or not. If you prefer not to get a jab, then don't, but arguing around whatever thread you think you can grasp instead of engaging with the actual research won't change facts.

LadySamantha I was asked to do an antibody test as part of the REACT study in August which was positive, and I told them I had not experienced symptoms —except making my neck sore feeling for non existent swollen glands— they then asked me to volunteer for this.

In June 2020 they had found 17% of Londoners had antibodies, that equates to around 1.5m Londoners having it in that first wave. That is why I am cynical about how the subsequent waves were able to take hold to the extent they did, mainly in the same postcodes. It really makes no sense unless antibodies had wained. When you have a black hole of data about that first wave like that then I think you have to treat any statistics about repeat cases with cynicism.

@CrunchyCarrot

But first you'd need to take part in a genetic/genome-wise study @CrunchyCarrot for there to be the possibility of this happening?

At the moment, yes. But the future beckons...

do the state of fear threads need to be resurrected?

honestly though, there is so little use in genome-wide data for the individual (genetic astrology was very apt) that this would never be something that would catch on in the NHS. For population based analyses yes, for working out if Doris is at increased risk of dementia, no.

there was a good paper recently debunking all further thought of using polygenic screening for IVF, it's just basically of so little use as to be pointless

@ManxRhyme

The difference is for all these infections you have named natural infection usually confers lifelong immunity. Unlike coronavirus infection which doesn't. Different virus, different behaviour.

How can anyone be sure it doesn’t when it’s been around for a year

do the state of fear threads need to be resurrected?

Oh don't invoke that name!!

@MRex “It's extremely clear that natural immunity wanes with different variants more than vaccine immunity”

no, it isn’t clear from that. They looked at immunity in vaccinated people up to 16 weeks post first dose.

@Emilyontmoor

bumblymummy The point is that you don’t know the nature of natural immunity you have to Covid and the time it persists. Mine persisted for at least 8 months, it was over a year when I tested negative for antibodies but a friend found 5 months after she was ill that they had disappeared. It’s a gamble to rely on it but a double jab makes it much less of a gamble.

I would love to embrace the idea that exposure to a SARS like illness in February 2003 (they now know it originated in Guangdong in Autumn 2002 and spread along travel links ) in Shanghai had given me natural immunity and was the reason that I was ill asymptomatically or that it is a genetic predisposition (all my family have had it mildly ) or it is the supplements I take (the study I am on has found a correlation between taking Vitamin D and Omega 3 supplements but none of the others, including high dose VitC) However there isn’t the evidence and so I will stick with the jabs which I am quite satisfied with the evidence is safe.

My brush with Cancer has taught me that there are no end of people claiming the benefits of natural immunity but in the end it was definitely the science and a greater understanding of the benefits of hormone treatment that saved my life.

Exactly 💯

[quote bumbleymummy]@MRex “It's extremely clear that natural immunity wanes with different variants more than vaccine immunity”

no, it isn’t clear from that. They looked at immunity in vaccinated people up to 16 weeks post first dose.[/quote]
Ok, let's say maths changes in an unlikely way so you're right and vaccine immunity wanes faster than scientists expect from the >1bn vaccinated so far...

We vaccinated people then get a booster. What have you unvaccinated got? Covid-19 again. And again. And again.

Reinfections so far tend to be milder and most cases are asymptomatic/mild to begin with so why would that be a problem?

Btw, doesn’t matter how many doses have been given if we’re waiting to see how long immunity from the vaccine lasts. We still have to wait for the time to pass.

My 20yo son has just tested positive for the second time. He first tested positive last year shortly after starting University. He feels as though he has a cold (cough, sore throat). Last time he barely knew he had it.

I know people who have had it twice and one person who has it had 3 times….

All confirmed….

So……?????

@WaterIsBest

I know people who have had it twice and one person who has it had 3 times….

All confirmed….

So……?????

So... I'd think that means their immune system has never made a satisfactory response to the infection(s).

This Nature article is interesting, on reinfection:

Understanding protection from SARS-CoV-2 by studying reinfection

www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1121-z

Also worth reading, and following links therein to research papers:

Covid immunity is about more than antibodies — here’s what else helps protect you

www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/vaccine-effectiveness-for-delta-immune-system-explained.html

Isn’t there an element of this linked to general underlying health?
I know there’s cases of super fit people suffering badly and dying but generally speaking, shouldn’t there be some gentle guidance around keeping your immune system as strong as possible. This will be different for everyone but there’s a lot of information on the role of vitamin d, a healthy diet which includes vitamin c, a link to sleep and stress levels.
Along with vaccinations (where people are still being hospitalised), there should be promotion of this to give us the best fighting chance possible.

Obesity is one of the biggest risk factors after age. I’m really not sure why people keep tiptoeing around it. Even referring to people who do end up in hospital or seriously ill as ‘healthy’ when they’re very clearly overweight.