Why is natural immunity ignored?

[SoOvethis]

I have seen several posts where people seem to think there is practically no protection from having caught Covid naturally and keep wondering why. But I think the reason is because there is never anything positive in the media about catching COVID naturally and low reinfection rates. I happened to come across an article today which I found surprising as that pointed out some statistics that show how unlikely you are to catch Covid twice.
That matches my real world experience too, I don’t know of anyone who has had confirmed Covid twice. And everyone that I now know who have caught recently are double jabbed but haven’t had covid naturally before.
If someone can prove that they had covid before or that they still have antibodies why can’t that be considered as “safe” as having the vaccinations? Especially as apparently the viral load is lower in those who have been reinfected.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/23/phe-upgrade-delta-variants-risk-level-due-to-reinfection-risk

This headline is totally misleading to what the article is actually telling you!

“ In light of the findings, PHE upgraded its risk assessment on “immunity after natural infection” from amber to red for the Delta variant. Reinfections remain a rarity though, accounting for only 1.2% of the 83,197 cases analysed.”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9834687/Proof-Covid-turning-mild-illness-Survivors-reinfected-lower-viral-loads.html

“ Last April, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) began examining people who had been struck down with Covid to determine the risk of them catching it again.

Of the 19,470 people they studied between April 2020 and July 2021, 195 went on to catch Covid for a second time.

This equated to just one per cent of people being reinfected. ”

“ Only a quarter of those participants who were reinfected had a high viral load — considered to be a score below 30.”

“ The finding was based on real-world analysis of the third wave in England and looked at about 80,000 Delta cases.

But even with the increased risk posed by the mutant strain, the numbers of Britons getting reinfected still remains low.

Of the Delta cases PHE analysed over the past three months, just 1.2 per cent were identified as possible reinfections.”

(Possibly reinfection btw…interesting choice of word)

Obesity is a risk factor and vitamin d deficiency is common in obese people. Taking a high dose of vitamin d and improving diet would surely be helpful?
At the least, it would benefit their immune system.

This includes immunity from either vaccination or infection, which makes a nice change.

www.standard.co.uk/news/health/covid-pandemic-almost-over-herd-immunity-b948291.html

The focus on antibodies misdirects us imo.

I have no doubt that people have got it twice, but if you put that into the context of how the immune system works, surely that is completely possible? Some people have what we seem to be calling low viral load, but in tandem with this, they may have an immediate first line immune response. So, for example, a very healthy immune system may be able to fight off the infection by coughing (yes, that is an innate immune response to infection) and the virus never actually 'takes hold'. They would test positive, but a positive test is not necessarily a case. They have been exposed to the virus and it has attempted to enter the person, but first line defenses in the immune system have already fought it off.

If people have only had to use first line defenses of the immune system, the body never needed to make antibodies. So of course, you could be infected again and have a different experience at a different time.

The immune system does not just have one line of defense. It has many (thank God).

medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000821.htm

There was a report of a UK Olympic swimmer who had had it twice. I don't know anyone personally who knows for sure but it's obviously officially underreported as in the first wave fewer people were being tested.

If you get mildly, does it matter if you get it twice or more? Some people get colds a few times every winter, others hardly ever.

Exactly @Charles11.

Thing is it's not a cold. Some experts think it affects blood vessels more than the respiratory system.
Hence people developing pulmonary emboli. Even those with mild cases are having after effects you don't get with a cold. I know one person whose renal function was badly affected. Others have lung damage only detected on specialised investigations, chest x rays were clear. Some like myself have pots as a result (an issue with changes to the heart rate on standing up) and are now on b blockers.

We’re not saying it is a cold. We’re just saying that we can have other mild illnesses several times and, if you aren’t seriously ill with it, it’s really not a problem.

Charles11 As highlighted upthread the study I am part of has found a correlation between the Vitamin D and Omega 3 supplements I take and mild /asymptomatic Covid but not all the rest including Vitamin C. Believe me in being treated for Cancer and seeking to protect myself from recurrence and being left with a chronic low white blood cell count I am familiar with all the ways that you can supposedly boost your immune system. Some of it is Science, it is hardly surprising that in northern zones there is a lot of Vitamin D deficiency but a lot of it is pseudo science and plain snake oil. Everyone’s immune system is different anyway, I know my white blood cell count actually dropped after really high dose vitamin C or Echinacea.

And the fact remains I got it asymptomatically but I am left with agonising ear pain for the last 13 month, on some days so bad I can’t bear to stand up. Plenty of very healthy and fit young people are getting Covid badly or experiencing long term side effects. I have no intention of risking catching the bugger again to find out how it would affect me.

Covid is not like any other coronavirus or flu / colds, The Swine flu epidemic for instance killed only young people because older generations have immunity. This is new and only just being understood. Thankfully we had existing vaccine technology that worked.

It is not surprising that the anecdata we have here is of people getting it again are in schools and universities where there has been high testing and high cases. I suspect you would find the same in postcodes with high case rates though some of those communities are not very trusting of government anyway so possibly still going untested. With 1.5m untested cases in London alone in that first wave I wonder how many did get reinfected - it’s a big black hole of data.

@SoOvethis

Wow, always fascinating to see so many people on mumsnet who know loads that have been reinfected!

Self selective isn’t it? If you post about say a holiday destination, then you’ll only get people reading and replying about that who have been. Ask about double infection and you’ll get people replying who know people, and having lots of nursing friends makes that very likely for me. People who don’t know anyone will just read and not reply. Your post reads as goady and that people are making it up. Please tell that to all my nursing friends who are on their knees and have had covid twice, one possibly 3 as first pre testing when they weren’t given adequate PPE. Some haven’t been able to return to work, that’s why the NHS is struggling now, so so so so many staff unable to return to work in all divisions and specialities. A small GP practice with one GP off with long covid within weeks is struggling and failing. They can’t afford to buy in cover the same way they do with covering their own holidays. Anyway, you happily crack on with thinking no one gets it twice/immunity last forever if you get it though having natural immunity and a covid party.

honestly though, there is so little use in genome-wide data for the individual (genetic astrology was very apt) that this would never be something that would catch on in the NHS. For population based analyses yes, for working out if Doris is at increased risk of dementia, no.

If you read the blurb I linked to that is precisely what genome U.K. are trying to do, identify SNPs on your DNA which predict you get Covid mildly or severely.

There are several genes already identified as predictive of individual health outcomes. The BRCA 1 and 2 are the well known ones for hormonal Cancers but it is widely accepted that there are others implicated in those Cancers. Any sort of family history and you are tested for known and unknown genes. The Gene that causes the FAP Bowel Cancer has been known about since the early twentieth century and a register met long before the actual gene was identified. There are many more genes already linked to illness.

Of course when DNA was first mapped it was hoped that it would open up a whole new world of gene related health benefits. The reason more has not been achieved is that the issue turned out to be the sheer volume of data that studies throw up. The challenge is handling that data, they have even involved computer game designers, and bio medical researchers now have to have advanced data analysis, and of course funding. Which is where the funding for the Covid related work might just come up with some answers.

Which all sort of further undermines this argument that immunity is homogeneous, with the healthiest immune system in the world if you have the gene you are still going to get Covid badly or Breast Cancer …..

And it is so easy to avoid the Covid risk, a couple of small painless jabs, not having your breast lopped off!

with the healthiest immune system in the world if you have the gene you are still going to get Covid badly or Breast Cancer

It’s not quite as simple as that. Certain genes may increase your risk of developing certain conditions but there are other epigenetic factors at play too. Will be interesting to see what comes back from the study.

bumbley Yes, exposure obviously, viral load and I am not discounting immunity either. I am sure it is a complex interplay of factors.

@Emilyontmoor I’m not saying that by taking steps to improve your health and immune system, you won’t be affected by covid, I’m saying improve it to give yourself the best fighting chance.
There are many people who have become seriously ill even after the vaccines. Everyone can try and improve their chances.
What if you hadn’t been taking vitamin d?
And vitamin c is best when derived from fruit and vegetables.
There are many benefits to being healthier and reducing the effects of covid could be one of them.

Charles Well the REACT side of the genome study I am part of also surveyed me on diet and other lifestyle factors, weighed and measured me and tested my urine, blood and fitness as part of their assessment of what impact health and lifestyle factors play as well so clearly they feel the role they play also need further research. As I say so far the feedback only identified two of my supplements as correlated with mild disease. So far no correlation between not just my other supplements but also my weight diet and exercise, though apparently it does mean I have half the risk of heart disease of a healthy woman my age.

Personally I think a good diet, exercise etc is a good thing because you feel better and it does protect you from some illnesses but don’t kid yourself (or be kidded by snakeoil salesmen) that it necessarily protects you from all. As I found out you can do everything right and still be unlucky, or rather in my case, it turns out I was vulnerable, probably genetically, to a high lifetime exposure to Oestrogen. Does it improve your chances of mild Covid? Clearly the jury is still out…., As far as vaccination is concerned the jury is definitely back.

My friend has just this week been confirmed of having her second case of Covid. 10 months from the first time. Both caught on lat-flow, then confirmed by PCR.
Both times really poorly plus she has had both Astra jabs for work.

@Emilyontmoor yes you can be unlucky. You may have got a huge viral load and end up very ill even though you did everything right. Each of us are individuals with different health.
You may think the jury is definitely back but what are you trying to say? What about all those people who are being hospitalised and dying due to covid despite having both vaccinations?
One headline I read was saying that 30% of deaths of covid in Wales were those who had been vaccinated. 30% is not small.

Of course, I’m not saying the vaccinations are not working, but would better underlying health given those 30% a better chance?

And there is plenty of research now that highlights the importance of vitamin d.

I’m just surprised, and annoyed tbh, that the message for better health and vitamin d isn’t being pushed.
It’s not really going to hurt anyone but could potentially help.

Charles I also think that as wetbench has highlighted that what is essentially victim blaming is not helpful at an individual or national level. Clearly the biggest risk factor by far for Covid as an infectious virus is being exposed to it in the first place, particularly with a high viral load in workplace and educational settings. As such effective track trace and isolate and other infection control measures should be the priority, as well as vaccination. I note Boris Johnson’s personal crusade on his own obesity has not exactly been an impressive success……

@Emilyontmoor why have you mentioned victim blaming? Who’s doing that, because I definitely am not.

Who is ignoring natural immunity? Lots of people/organizations take it into account.

The EU Covid passport is available to those who have recovered from Covid as well as those who are fully vaccinated and is widely used in the EU.

I am not sure what you are trying to say on deaths. Surely the fact that the number of the vaccinated majority (over 70% in Wales) going on to get Covid and die account for 30% of deaths and the unvaccinated minority (mostly young and less vulnerable to death from Covid) account for 60% shows how effective the vaccine is?

Prior to this pandemic PHEs role in the IK was to promote public health in terms of healthier lifestyles and fighting obesity. I don’t think that underlying message has been switched off at all. However as I say whilst a healthy lifestyle is a good thing generally there are much greater priorities when it comes to this pandemic, and I am pretty sure one group of the population that have been particularly vulnerable during the pandemic, NHS staff, need telling about how to have a healthy lifestyle anyway! As I say there main issue has been being exposed to Covid by the lack of infection control measures, a stumbling test trace and isolate system and the resulting high case numbers.

@Emilyontmoor why have you mentioned victim blaming? Who’s doing that, because I definitely am not.

Did you not understand wetbenchs frustration? That you and others are focusing on immunity when they are witnessing colleagues being made ill, not by any failures on their part in terms of lifestyle, but by inadequate PPE, track trace and isolate and the high levels of cases, particularly among the unvaccinated (some of whom have not taken the opportunity offered to them).

@Emilyontmoor this is what I have an issue with. The vaccine only shouldn’t be the message, the message should go hand in hand with good health diet, vitamin d, gentle exercise and managing stress and sleep. It’s a big ask but it could help so many.
It’s not just about obesity. You can be obese and still strengthen your immune system. It’s not ideal but better than not doing it.

[quote Emilyontmoor]**@Emilyontmoor why have you mentioned victim blaming? Who’s doing that, because I definitely am not.

Did you not understand wetbenchs frustration? That you and others are focusing on immunity when they are witnessing colleagues being made ill, not by any failures on their part in terms of lifestyle, but by inadequate PPE, track trace and isolate and the high levels of cases, particularly among the unvaccinated (some of whom have not taken the opportunity offered to them).[/quote]
I’m not focussing on immunity. I’m focussed on giving yourself the best fighting chance, despite your circumstances.