Why is natural immunity ignored?

[SoOvethis]

I have seen several posts where people seem to think there is practically no protection from having caught Covid naturally and keep wondering why. But I think the reason is because there is never anything positive in the media about catching COVID naturally and low reinfection rates. I happened to come across an article today which I found surprising as that pointed out some statistics that show how unlikely you are to catch Covid twice.
That matches my real world experience too, I don’t know of anyone who has had confirmed Covid twice. And everyone that I now know who have caught recently are double jabbed but haven’t had covid naturally before.
If someone can prove that they had covid before or that they still have antibodies why can’t that be considered as “safe” as having the vaccinations? Especially as apparently the viral load is lower in those who have been reinfected.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/23/phe-upgrade-delta-variants-risk-level-due-to-reinfection-risk

This headline is totally misleading to what the article is actually telling you!

“ In light of the findings, PHE upgraded its risk assessment on “immunity after natural infection” from amber to red for the Delta variant. Reinfections remain a rarity though, accounting for only 1.2% of the 83,197 cases analysed.”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9834687/Proof-Covid-turning-mild-illness-Survivors-reinfected-lower-viral-loads.html

“ Last April, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) began examining people who had been struck down with Covid to determine the risk of them catching it again.

Of the 19,470 people they studied between April 2020 and July 2021, 195 went on to catch Covid for a second time.

This equated to just one per cent of people being reinfected. ”

“ Only a quarter of those participants who were reinfected had a high viral load — considered to be a score below 30.”

“ The finding was based on real-world analysis of the third wave in England and looked at about 80,000 Delta cases.

But even with the increased risk posed by the mutant strain, the numbers of Britons getting reinfected still remains low.

Of the Delta cases PHE analysed over the past three months, just 1.2 per cent were identified as possible reinfections.”

(Possibly reinfection btw…interesting choice of word)

We tested negative for antibodies 5 months after having covid. You lose them quicker than vaccination. I know of people on their 2nd and 3rd infections, there have been people infected with different strains at the same time etc
It all sucks

Reinfection data on page 18:

PHE report

Wow, always fascinating to see so many people on mumsnet who know loads that have been reinfected!

I think the reinfection thing depends on who you know. I don't know anyone who has had Covid twice from general life, but I do of several people who have had two confirmed cases who spend a lot of time in hospital, either because they work there or because of illness.

There are also reports that some people who have had both jabs haven't got any antibodies especially those who are immunocompromised (?)

I've a friend with Lupus (on immunosuppressants) and she was double vaccinated by June, but was tested last week and has no antibodies, much to her dismay.

I had Covid a year ago and still have antibodies. I've got an autoimmune disease but am not immunosuppressed.

I think it's just simpler to insist everyone has 2 jabs, rather than try to figure out who is still immune, might only need one jab, etc. Too much work for an already over-stretched NHS!

@Justilou1

Because there’s more evidence to show that natural immunity to Covid doesn’t last long at all and vaccine treatment works better. If you were to count the trials, it’s very, very heavily weighted in favour of vaccines.

I had antibodies in June 2021 when I last had symptoms in March 2020.

@SoOvethis

Sorry been MIA! Thanks for all the responses. Was actually surprised I didn’t get bashed for daring to say that natural immunity is actually a “thing” and also not bashed for linking a daily mail article 🤣

I agree it is obviously difficult for those who had it in the early days (like me), but a lot of us still have antibodies. I guess it’s the ones without that would slip through the net.

I have said it on other threads. My latest antibody test about 6/7 weeks ago which was 15/16 months post infection showed I had a very high level.

I am just more surprised by the lack of general knowledge - the minute I try and tell anyone I had covid and have antibodies, the first comment they always say is - you know you can get it again and antibodies only last 6 months….obv not the case for me!

And yes, France is a country where if you can prove you had covid before your jab then they give you one vaccine and you are considered fully vaccinated.
I remember reading back in the day that actually having had covid and getting one jab gives much better antibody response than not having had Covid and having 2 jabs.

I think the government/scientists don’t help themselves by not properly acknowledging this. It makes it look more fishy and I believe makes people more sceptical about the vaccine. Why the intense push to vaccinate if we know natural immunity is as good (if not better) than just being jabbed…
Makes you wonder!?

It's really not that hard to understand. Some people will build more natural immunity than others after covid, and there's no set time you'll remain protected. Therefore we are all offered immunisation to give us the most protection possible. There's nothing remotely "fishy" about it. Unless you're looking for something to suit your bizarre conspiracy narrative

My dad had covid twice. I know you seem to find this hard to believe and 'only on mumsnet', but he did. First time he either caught it in hospital, or from carers he had visiting at home after discharge, second time was 6 months later, when he was by then in a carehome, as the first dose had ravaged him so badly his body could no longer function properly. 2 other residents at his home also caught it for the second time then as well. I, myself, have never had it at all. I do try to lower my family's risk by avoiding busy places etc. My dad obviously didn't have that choice. I guess a lot more people would get covid for a second time if they were exposed to it a lot. Or we could all just pretend that it doesn't happen and the government have an "agenda". Yawn.

Some people develop more vaccine induced immunity than others and some people’s immunity wanes faster than others but they are all treated the same and assumed immune.

Older/immunocompromised people’s immunity wanes faster.

SoOveThis can you tell me which antibody test you used?
I absolutely failed with mine and am wondering if it's me just screwing up or if there actually is a 'better' more user-friendly test out there. I found it really difficult to deal with the lancet and get enough blood.

@TheVanguardSix

SoOveThis can you tell me which antibody test you used? I absolutely failed with mine and am wondering if it's me just screwing up or if there actually is a 'better' more user-friendly test out there. I found it really difficult to deal with the lancet and get enough blood.

all of the self testing kits will use the same methods - can be helped by drinking loads of water beforehand alongside salty snack, doing some exercise, and being hot (not hard in this weather ) which will increase blood released when you use the lancet.

If you're actually have trouble collecting it rather than getting blood flowing, there are places you can go where they will take a sample like how a blood test is done, but I imagine much pricier.

@CrunchyCarrot

There are also reports that some people who have had both jabs haven't got any antibodies especially those who are immunocompromised (?)

I've a friend with Lupus (on immunosuppressants) and she was double vaccinated by June, but was tested last week and has no antibodies, much to her dismay.

I had Covid a year ago and still have antibodies. I've got an autoimmune disease but am not immunosuppressed.

I think it's just simpler to insist everyone has 2 jabs, rather than try to figure out who is still immune, might only need one jab, etc. Too much work for an already over-stretched NHS!

yes to @CrunchyCarrot

establishing who has immunity (and what's going to be a deciding factor - ABs over a certain level?) when we don't know how long it lasts or what the best marker for this is for billions of people is extremely complex when we have a proven vaccine that can be rolled out

Because there's no money it for Big Pharma

I got my immunity to covid the old fashioned way. A few days of an irritating cough, not much energy to do much except sit in the house watching movies, and I was good as new. Didn't have to pay Pfizer a penny :)

My dad had covid twice. I know you seem to find this hard to believe and 'only on mumsnet', but he did. First time he either caught it in hospital, or from carers he had visiting at home after discharge, second time was 6 months later, when he was by then in a carehome, as the first dose had ravaged him so badly his body could no longer function properly. 2 other residents at his home also caught it for the second time then as well. I, myself, have never had it at all. I do try to lower my family's risk by avoiding busy places etc. My dad obviously didn't have that choice. I guess a lot more people would get covid for a second time if they were exposed to it a lot. Or we could all just pretend that it doesn't happen and the government have an "agenda". Yawn.

Since SARS-COV-2's main 'trick' is to evade the innate immune response in many people, if your later T cell response isn't strong, then you are going to be in trouble and become seriously ill. Most of us will encounter the virus more than once, but for those whose immune systems either didn't do well making antibodies/CD4/CD8 cells the first time, then they may have symptoms again and be quite ill again. Older people will be more at risk if their immune response is weak. Even being fully vaccinated may not do much in that case. Everyone is different!

I wonder if in future we will know more of the genetic and other factors about why some of us fare so badly and why others barely notice Covid. Then vaccines could be targeted to the most vulnerable, who may not be identical to those who we today consider to be vulnerable.

This is why infection immunity isn't considered: www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9.
Very low neutralization of Beta or Delta from infection immunity, lower than from vaccination.
A single dose of vaccine seems to work well, but the effort of tying together infection records, particularly for those who didn't have a confirmed PCR test, means it's overall cheaper and more effective to just give the second shot too.

I had antibodies in August 2020 likely from having Covid in the early March wave in London when my DD lost her sense of taste and smell. I had friends who had it then too, had antibodies in April but had lost them by August. I am now part of a study looking for the genetic / lifestyle indicators for getting Covid mildly / asymptomatically and by May this year I had no antibodies (and that was two weeks after the first jab).

Their was too little testing in that first wave to be sure who has or hasn’t been reinfected. I just don’t see how you can be getting such high infection rates in wave after wave in certain postcodes in London and the north if there isn’t significant reinfection happening as a result of heavy viral loads due to other factors (deprivation, ethnicity, multi generational families etc.) There is just still too little known about immunity and reinfection by this novel coronavirus.

I am very relieved to be double jabbed. Even though I had no symptoms I have experienced 15 months of agonising ear pain, now known to be a long Covid symptom and woke up every morning for a year with a horrible rash. I really don’t want to be a guinea pig to find out if I can get it again and how it would affect me.

But then I almost died from measles as a child so I have good reason to be very pro vaccination.

“Between 76% and 92% of the individuals neutralized the four strains at M6. The fraction of neutralizers was lower in the second cohort at M12, a phenomenon which was particularly marked for Beta and Delta.”

@MRex

This is why infection immunity isn't considered: www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9. Very low neutralization of Beta or Delta from infection immunity, lower than from vaccination. A single dose of vaccine seems to work well, but the effort of tying together infection records, particularly for those who didn't have a confirmed PCR test, means it's overall cheaper and more effective to just give the second shot too.

You can't be sharing all that science article stuff you know. Stick to anecdotal - John's mate down the pub says Big Pharma want our money blah blah blah

Must try harder next time!

And they’re comparing to vaccinated patients a max of 4 months (16 weeks) after first vaccine.

Both of my previous posts to @mrex irt the nature paper.

As I said upthread, I'd be more than happy to have a booster type jab for Covid, like the yearly flu jab. Until that's offered I'm happy with my natural immunity.

The flu jab isn't a 'booster' it's a vaccine to the main strains of flu circulating in a particular season.

How do you know what your natural immunity is going to be for the rest of the year?

How do you know what your natural immunity is going to be for the rest of the year?

How do people know what their vaccine induced immunity will be for the rest of the year.

How do people know what their vaccine induced immunity will be for the rest of the year. Because there are ongoing studies and at the point they find vaccine immunity waning there will be booster jabs.

It is very clear that the individual response to Covid infection varies widely both in symptoms and the time that you retain antibodies. In any case our individual immunity is also variable, and not well understood. I have a low white blood cell count (as a result of chemo that was probably unnecessary - I have reason not to be a fan of big pharma) so technically I am immune compromised and I know people who were told to shield with better white blood cell counts than me (and if I didn’t have a useless GP I probably would have been too). However I don’t tend to get viruses and infections, and got Covid without symptoms. The medical profession just shrugs it’s shoulders as to why this might be “Some people have immune systems that just seem to function fine without a normal white blood cell count.”

If you have the offer of vaccines that are known to function effectively against infection I don’t know why you would risk trusting your own immune system which is an unknown?

Though of course there is no shortage of natural health practitioner / snakeoil salesman who claim to have the magic formula that will make your immune system impregnable to Cancer and illness with very expensive magic mushrooms or restrictive diets or similar where the Scientists have failed

@Emilyontmoor there are ongoing studies about immunity after infection too. They show that antibodies last for 8+ months in most people. In the above nature paper, between 76% and 92% of people had neutralising antibodies after 6 months.
Many double vaccinated people are still contracting the delta strain.

Doctor here so exposed to covid much more than general population. I might have had covid twice. Face to face mask less conversation with a positive covid patient for over an hour before they would test staff early March 2020, was ill with very bad cough. Also could have just been a cough. Confirmed positive in December 2020.

I know multiple members of staff who tested positive in spring and then again autumn/winter, it’s not unheard of. There’s no proof yet that immunity lasts over 6 months, we’ve not had time to do the studies yet.

T-cells are also crucial. T-cells from SARS have been shown to last at least 15 years so it’s not all about antibodies.