Why is natural immunity ignored?

[SoOvethis]

I have seen several posts where people seem to think there is practically no protection from having caught Covid naturally and keep wondering why. But I think the reason is because there is never anything positive in the media about catching COVID naturally and low reinfection rates. I happened to come across an article today which I found surprising as that pointed out some statistics that show how unlikely you are to catch Covid twice.
That matches my real world experience too, I don’t know of anyone who has had confirmed Covid twice. And everyone that I now know who have caught recently are double jabbed but haven’t had covid naturally before.
If someone can prove that they had covid before or that they still have antibodies why can’t that be considered as “safe” as having the vaccinations? Especially as apparently the viral load is lower in those who have been reinfected.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/23/phe-upgrade-delta-variants-risk-level-due-to-reinfection-risk

This headline is totally misleading to what the article is actually telling you!

“ In light of the findings, PHE upgraded its risk assessment on “immunity after natural infection” from amber to red for the Delta variant. Reinfections remain a rarity though, accounting for only 1.2% of the 83,197 cases analysed.”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9834687/Proof-Covid-turning-mild-illness-Survivors-reinfected-lower-viral-loads.html

“ Last April, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) began examining people who had been struck down with Covid to determine the risk of them catching it again.

Of the 19,470 people they studied between April 2020 and July 2021, 195 went on to catch Covid for a second time.

This equated to just one per cent of people being reinfected. ”

“ Only a quarter of those participants who were reinfected had a high viral load — considered to be a score below 30.”

“ The finding was based on real-world analysis of the third wave in England and looked at about 80,000 Delta cases.

But even with the increased risk posed by the mutant strain, the numbers of Britons getting reinfected still remains low.

Of the Delta cases PHE analysed over the past three months, just 1.2 per cent were identified as possible reinfections.”

(Possibly reinfection btw…interesting choice of word)

@Walkaround

Your logic doesn’t cut it, either. The Government in England wants people to go back to normal behaviour asap without chaos ensuing. The easiest way to achieve this is to get as many people vaccinated as possible as quickly as possible, then for them to mix them together while vaccinated immunity is still at its best. That way, hopefully, when vaccinated people do get infected, they are significantly less likely to clog up the hospitals or die and they get the benefit of a boost of natural immunity, which will hopefully help in the long term (ongoing research required). The situation pre-vaccination made it 100% obvious that mixing together while unvaccinated resulted in too many hospitalisations and deaths for the hospital system to be able to cope with, and the level of effectiveness of the vaccines makes it obvious that more rather than fewer people have to be vaccinated, because it does reduce the rate of transmission and illness, however much you hate to admit it, but only enough to prevent chaos if as many people as possible are vaccinated - otherwise, the virus gets to too many of the really vulnerable too quickly and chaos ensues. Natural immunity is not therefore being cast aside, it’s just that there were not enough people with natural immunity alone to enable life to go back to normal very quickly without a significant death toll, long-term complications for the healthcare system to deal with, and chaos in hospitals and workplaces due to high levels of significant sickness. Israel proves this - not enough natural immunity for people to mix together without risk unless vaccinated. And, as pointed out, faffing about with assessing whether someone needs a vaccine or not isn’t a priority when giving a vaccine to someone who has already had covid is not going to do any harm to their natural immunity, it can only boost it if anything, so for certainty and simplicity until more research has been completed to show that natural infection, however mild/asymptomatic it was and however long ago still provides amazing immunity (this is not yet proven, whatever you say, as many healthcare workers in particular have had covid more than once, so have been able to transmit it more than once and be off sick more than once), they should be vaccinated, too.

So, what is your alternative proposal, @Indiatango? Because arguing the vaccine is only for your protection doesn’t cut it when the vaccine is only 66% effective. Lots of people choosing not to be vaccinated for any reason puts everyone in need of healthcare for any reason at risk, as hospitals get sidetracked by highly infectious covid admissions. At very high levels of vaccine refusal, it puts the rest of societal life in danger, too, as other essential workers fall sick for significant periods of time at the same time due to rapid spread, unless significant curbs are put on normal human behaviour. Your body, your choice would work better as a concept if the vaccine were 100% effective; it fails as an argument at societal level when the vaccine is significantly less effective than that, hence the pressure for people to be vaccinated and the risk of it spilling over into compulsion.

"My body, my choice" seems to be acceptable justification for definitely killing an unborn fetus, but not acceptable justification for not taking a vaccine for an illness that has a 99.7% survival rate?

“My body, my choice” is still an acceptable justification in the UK for everyone except care workers, and the exception for care workers is being challenged. It is not an automatic, unquestioned choice with respect to an unborn foetus past a certain point of gestation. In general, society has always recognised that there are competing rights, responsibilities and interests at play in any situation.

@Walkaround

Your logic doesn’t cut it, either. The Government in England wants people to go back to normal behaviour asap without chaos ensuing. The easiest way to achieve this is to get as many people vaccinated as possible as quickly as possible, then for them to mix them together while vaccinated immunity is still at its best. That way, hopefully, when vaccinated people do get infected, they are significantly less likely to clog up the hospitals or die and they get the benefit of a boost of natural immunity, which will hopefully help in the long term (ongoing research required). The situation pre-vaccination made it 100% obvious that mixing together while unvaccinated resulted in too many hospitalisations and deaths for the hospital system to be able to cope with, and the level of effectiveness of the vaccines makes it obvious that more rather than fewer people have to be vaccinated, because it does reduce the rate of transmission and illness, however much you hate to admit it, but only enough to prevent chaos if as many people as possible are vaccinated - otherwise, the virus gets to too many of the really vulnerable too quickly and chaos ensues. Natural immunity is not therefore being cast aside, it’s just that there were not enough people with natural immunity alone to enable life to go back to normal very quickly without a significant death toll, long-term complications for the healthcare system to deal with, and chaos in hospitals and workplaces due to high levels of significant sickness. Israel proves this - not enough natural immunity for people to mix together without risk unless vaccinated. And, as pointed out, faffing about with assessing whether someone needs a vaccine or not isn’t a priority when giving a vaccine to someone who has already had covid is not going to do any harm to their natural immunity, it can only boost it if anything, so for certainty and simplicity until more research has been completed to show that natural infection, however mild/asymptomatic it was and however long ago still provides amazing immunity (this is not yet proven, whatever you say, as many healthcare workers in particular have had covid more than once, so have been able to transmit it more than once and be off sick more than once), they should be vaccinated, too.

So, what is your alternative proposal, @Indiatango? Because arguing the vaccine is only for your protection doesn’t cut it when the vaccine is only 66% effective. Lots of people choosing not to be vaccinated for any reason puts everyone in need of healthcare for any reason at risk, as hospitals get sidetracked by highly infectious covid admissions. At very high levels of vaccine refusal, it puts the rest of societal life in danger, too, as other essential workers fall sick for significant periods of time at the same time due to rapid spread, unless significant curbs are put on normal human behaviour. Your body, your choice would work better as a concept if the vaccine were 100% effective; it fails as an argument at societal level when the vaccine is significantly less effective than that, hence the pressure for people to be vaccinated and the risk of it spilling over into compulsion.

It’s quite clear people need to limit how many they see and how they see them.

Vaccinated at a big concert - still getting it, still passing it on, still going to hospital

It is certainly a possibility that further measures will return, alongside vaccination, if hospitals can’t cope and too many people are off work sick at the same time. This would happen significantly more quickly with lower vaccination rates.

Again I refer people back to the origin of this stream. Its a fact that people who have caught the virus are constantly marginalised despite being solidly proven to be the most resistant group to the effects of Covid.

My 'natural' immune resistance was very hard fought for in a life or death struggle 18 months ago and I totally resent being told that my immune resistance is inferior to the mRNA vaccines. I have had to put up with the 'you can get it again' mob and 'your resistance only lasts 3 months - then 6 months - then 12 months' as it continues to prove superiority.

Then we had the propaganda that 'why not have the vaccine as well as its even better for you'. When that got disproven as well and we still get marginalised.

If you want the vaccine then great but there is zero logic in not recognising people previously infected and recovered; they are proven just as safe as those vaccinated - if not more so

www.aier.org/article/if-you-had-covid-do-you-need-the-vaccine/

The drugs companies knew that the spike protein was the most mutable part of the virus when they designed the vaccines. I will leave it to others to speculate as to why they chose to design the vaccines to target this part...

Why leave others to "speculate" though at @IncredulousOne?

I personally can't think why academics & drugs companies would deliberately design a vaccine to fail given the huge amount of money and career boosting potential a robust effective vaccine would have? The company that manages to do this are basically going to be printing money.

(And this is ignoring the many deaths, disability and economic damage that would be prevented by such a vaccine - but I suppose people will argue it's not in the interests of "big pharma")

I find it interesting how those postulating conspiracy theories are never able to spell out exactly what they mean, and instead just hint and allude to things. Companies/universities deliberately making crap vaccines would be an absolute bombshell and if you truly think it, surely it make sense to explain the situation to others so they can get on side.

I'm not saying they've designed the vaccines not to work. They've certainly got a good line in repeat business, though.

@Indiatango -“ Then we had the propaganda that 'why not have the vaccine as well as its even better for you'. When that got disproven as well and we still get marginalised.”
That is untrue - research so far indicates it is better to have had covid plus one dose of the vaccine. You may not like that, but it is not propaganda.

I do have huge sympathy for your position though, @Indiatango. You clearly do still have good immunity and regular testing has demonstrated that in your particular case. Many people are doubtless in a similar position. On a global scale, though, I don’t think there is sufficient evidence that all people, or a high enough proportion of people who have had covid, of all age groups and levels of severity of covid disease, retain good enough immunity in the long term to change overall policy while still in the middle of a crisis. I know too many young people who have most definitely had covid more than once to believe getting covid more than once is that vanishingly rare. So I do think more research is needed still, but research so far is looking hopeful that people like you should be treated differently in future.

Give it a rest. Naturally gained immunity doesn’t need improving as it’s 13 times better than vaccinated. I am getting tired of the vaccinated pushing the jab on people who really don’t need it.

www.newsmax.com/health/health-news/covid-immunity-vaccination/2021/06/09/id/1024476/

citizenwells.com/2021/06/10/cleveland-clinic-study-finds-natural-covid-immunity-better-than-fully-vaccinated-no-reason-to-vaccinate-previously-infected-fully-vaccinated-still-getting-covid-and-adverse-reactions/

Thanks for your empathy. I’m used to it now that the burden of proof on Covid survivors continue to be higher than the vaccinated. The growing evidence that vaccines are sub optimal still does not stop them getting an easier ride.

As you denigrate the effectiveness of the vaccine, I’m not sure why natural immunity being more effective than that after the first few months is sufficient evidence for you that natural immunity is adequate, on its own.

But yes, people who have had the vaccine get an easy ride.

@IncredulousOne

I'm not saying they've designed the vaccines not to work. They've certainly got a good line in repeat business, though.

Nope but you're saying "they" deliberately designed them to be less effective?

And that we could have a better vaccine on the market, if it wasn't for oxford/drug companies making a decision to produce a vaccine that would not be as effective long term?

I'm interested in your rationale behind this.

A lot of countries treat natural immunity as equivalent to one jab.

For all the talk of natural immunity bring superior t cell response etc there are too many cases like this to take it for granted

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-56017494.amp

For what it's worth lots of people in the UK are double vaccinated and have been naturally infected and statistically they are the least likely to get reinfected.

What I read was that people's immune response can vary depending on the severity of the infection and I suppose it is harder to put together statistics on this but surely with a few million PCR confirmed infections some such analysis must be possible

The press keep on scouring the cases for the extremely rare cases of younger people in ICU or dead. However, they can’t change the stats which show that we have had casualties of less than 0.2% in almost 2 years and the vast majority have had severe comorbidities and/or are more than 75 years old.

You asked me what I would do? Well I would follow fifty years of WHO policy (pre 2020) for respiratory viruses which is to not lock down, not wear useless masks, not have 2m separation as it’s all pointless against aerosols carrying the virus. I would vaccinate the vulnerable and anyone else who wants it but would recommend that anyone under 45 who is healthy should not bother.

The Scandinavian countries generally followed the existing WHO policies had less restrictions than us and less death rates. Other countries were far stricter than us and suffered heavier casualties but still only at 0.3% and one at 0.6% over two years

Most importantly we must learn from our total loss of perspective and not destroy our economies, education and mental well being for casualties of 0.1% a year. We should work on building up our immune systems, lose weight and most importantly get fitter !!!

@Indiatango - why look at death rates rather than percentage of people taking up hospital beds and hospital appointments? ICU is the minority, but plenty of people are ill enough to cause huge problems with availability of ambulances, ambulances queueing outside full hospitals, unrelated surgeries being cancelled due to beds being taken by covid patients, staff being off sick, waiting lists for pretty much any condition getting longer and longer as acute covid cases take up everyone’s time etc, etc. What percentage of people need hospital treatment of any sort (eg oxygen), because that is where the problem lies, not the overall death rate - although some people taking a very long time to get round to dying, rather than dying quickly, probably doesn’t help.

Btw, if you were following current WHO advice, you would get vaccinated, not protest against having it because you’ve already had covid.

Anecdotal evidence I know, but nhs hospital worker who got covid March 2020. Reluctant to get vaccinated due to allergies but eventually succumbed to one AZ. (Not had second as info re clots came out and from personal research did not feel benefits outweighed the risks, plus many countries call someone fully vaxed after covid plus one vaccination as that acts as the booster) Everybody I know who has had covid reacted badly to the vaccines, which tells me our immune response from natural immunity was working! Those who had not had covid reported very little side effects. I also don't know anybody at my hospital who has had it a second time although plenty who seem to be getting it despite double vaxed. What really annoys me is that I'm not deemed fully vaxed, fortunately I have no desire to go abroad but if they bring in rules re NHS workers having to have two vaccinations them I'll be retiring!

Death rates is the clearest way to measure the impact of any pandemic as it’s totally objective and clear to measure. Hospital rates are subjective as they include the stoic as well as the weak and frivolous.

Our medical services never came close to overload but the deaths caused by cancelling 11 million procedures and other preventive measures will be greater than those killed by Covid. The suicide rates can be hard measured as can the lost school days which in turn will cause untold damage to the future of our young. Don’t even get me started on our mental welfare and the consequences of economic hardships.

@Indiatango - and if no procedures and preventive measures had been cancelled and no lockdown had happened, do you think hospitals would not have been overloaded?! Ambulances certainly couldn’t cope with the number of covid-related callouts at the start of the pandemic.

There is objective and helpful and there is objective data that is not actually helpful at demonstrating the reality of a problem. Just because you think death rates are more objective (debatable, unless you mean excess deaths), that doesn’t mean they tell us what we need to know.

@Indiatango - modern healthcare systems bear little resemblance to the healthcare of 50 years ago.

@Indiatango

The press keep on scouring the cases for the extremely rare cases of younger people in ICU or dead. However, they can’t change the stats which show that we have had casualties of less than 0.2% in almost 2 years and the vast majority have had severe comorbidities and/or are more than 75 years old.

You asked me what I would do? Well I would follow fifty years of WHO policy (pre 2020) for respiratory viruses which is to not lock down, not wear useless masks, not have 2m separation as it’s all pointless against aerosols carrying the virus. I would vaccinate the vulnerable and anyone else who wants it but would recommend that anyone under 45 who is healthy should not bother.

The Scandinavian countries generally followed the existing WHO policies had less restrictions than us and less death rates. Other countries were far stricter than us and suffered heavier casualties but still only at 0.3% and one at 0.6% over two years

Most importantly we must learn from our total loss of perspective and not destroy our economies, education and mental well being for casualties of 0.1% a year. We should work on building up our immune systems, lose weight and most importantly get fitter !!!

I couldn't agree more