Is anyone NOT getting the vaccine?

[JC2021]

Anyone on here choosing not to receive the covid-19 vaccine?

I am undecided, but resistant.

My reasons; you can still become infected and spread the virus. How sick you might become would depend on your immunity, your age/health.

So, in my mind the only good the vaccine 'may' do (no guarantees) is prevent you getting very ill. Although, even this is still not guaranteed.

So the vaccine may reduce the change of you becoming really ill.

Fully vaccinated people can still spread the virus unknowingly to others, the same as unvaccinated.

Views?

If we want to get back to something like normality, we need the great majority of the population to be immune to this disease, or protected from getting it badly.

The problem with this is the UK is well on course to achieve its target of vaccinating enough people to reach herd immunity, yet we're hearing of vaccine passports and restrictions in the autumn.

If I genuinely believed that getting vaccinated would end this cycle, I'd do it. Sadly, however, we've been lied to and misinformed since the beginning of this pandemic and I don't trust anything anymore.

This was posted on twitter.

Forced or coerced vaccination is a violation of:

1. Nuremberg Code
2. UNESCO Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights
3. UN International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
4. UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights 5) Public Health(Control of Disease Act) 1984

@JC2021

Anyone on here choosing not to receive the covid-19 vaccine?

I am undecided, but resistant.

My reasons; you can still become infected and spread the virus. How sick you might become would depend on your immunity, your age/health.

So, in my mind the only good the vaccine 'may' do (no guarantees) is prevent you getting very ill. Although, even this is still not guaranteed.

So the vaccine may reduce the change of you becoming really ill.

Fully vaccinated people can still spread the virus unknowingly to others, the same as unvaccinated.

Views?

You may need to do a little more research based in the Op.

We have had data for a long while now that shows that the vaccines DO reduce the chances of you catching covid and they reduce the likelihood of you transmitting covid to others by around a half.

They have also been shown to reduce the chances of become seriously ill by a lot.

Yes, other factors do come into play - we know that, like many other vaccines, not all vaccines are 100% effective and that for some people (mainly very elderly or CEV/vulnerable people, esp those with compromised immune systems) the vaccines will be less effective.

However if you are not very elderly and your immune system isn't compromised by other health conditions then the vaccines appear to reduce the severity of covid if you catch it, with most cases being very mild and/or asymptomatic.

I'm not providing sources of evidence but it's all out there, including in easy to find main stream media, and has been available for a while now.

So to summarise if you are vaccinated you can still catch covid and spread it BUT the likelihood is significantly reduced. And if you are otherwise fairly healthy they are likely to be effective in preventing you from having anything more than mild symptoms, if unlucky enough to still catch it.

I had covid pre-vaccines and it isn't an experience I wish to experience again. Saying goodbye to dh and teen Dd as I was rushed off to a and e with the very real risk of heart attack/stroke was something none of us wish to go through if we can do anything to avoid it. And mine was only a moderate case.

@JC2021

I have suffered with blood clots before and required thinning medication

Did you know that covid itself can cause the very same clots as the Vaccines can? And that the risk of blood clots is higher with covid infection than it is with the vaccines?

It was one of the first things they scanned me for, after my heart tracings were complete.

@Canigooutyet

This was posted on twitter.

Forced or coerced vaccination is a violation of:

1. Nuremberg Code
2. UNESCO Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights
3. UN International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
4. UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights 5) Public Health(Control of Disease Act) 1984

Yup

It's relevance to the coronavirus vaccines depends on what you define "coercion" as, in the current context

@Canigooutyet

This was posted on twitter.

Forced or coerced vaccination is a violation of:

1. Nuremberg Code
2. UNESCO Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights
3. UN International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
4. UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights 5) Public Health(Control of Disease Act) 1984

No one is forcing you. But there is so much erroneous anti-vax info on this thread. Including ofc the OP's post.

I think being unable to work without being vaccinated is a reasonable definition of coercion.

Whilst your reasonings are not sound, based on the OP and further comment, and are easily shown not to be the case..

It's your choice.
No one will March you to a clinic and force a vaccine in your arm.
Make your own choice.
But own that choice.
Don't make up untrue statements to justify it - simply say 'I don't want it.'
And then be prepared to accept any consequences of that choice: restrictions re travel; need to isolate if close contact; possibly not able to go to some large, crowded events/Venues.

Your choice. It's that simple really.

The problem with this is the UK is well on course to achieve its target of vaccinating enough people to reach herd immunity,

Are we? How, with the majority of under-18s not being vaccinated and first dose demand for younger adults now dropping fast?

I'm intrigued. We may be getting close to the alpha threshold. But we no longer have alpha.

Can't believe I'm nostalgic for alpha. If you'd told me that in January I would have laughed.

[quote IHTC]@rampantivy

I was wondering how long it would take someone to hint I'm selfish

I'm selfish in the sense that I will always put myself and my family before strangers. It's human nature and anyone who denies this is kidding themselves. If you've had a vaccine, you've had it to protect you. Not Dorris, age 95 in Cornwall or me.

Likewise, I've chosen not to have it as I'm doing what I think is best for me and my family.[/quote]
When you came to that decision, did it make a difference that you could count on the majority of the population getting the vaccine? If most of the rest of us felt as you do, would you still feel safe turning the vaccine down?

You said this earlier. I don't think the risks of covid (for me personally) are great enough to warrant me taking it.

You've decided you and your family will probably be amongst the fortunate ones who survive Covid and don't get long Covid. Do you have any basis for this, or is it just blind optimism?

@MistressoftheDarkSide

I think being unable to work without being vaccinated is a reasonable definition of coercion.

As what? As a care worker or in health care? Yeah, I happen to believe that anyone in health care needs to be vaccinated. This is really not a controversial view outside the UK, believe me.

I'm not anti vax at all but all the vaccines I've taken over the years have been out for so long I'm happy to believe they are safe these vaccines are only in the early stages so unless I was in a very vulnerable category I would not have it just yet anyway

No vaccine is 100% safe for everyone who takes them, as it pretty much no medication. Almost all medical treatment also comes with risks. Take a look at any box of medication and look at the side effects. Some of the medication I take has some really very serious potential side effects.

If you are waiting for the vaccines to be 100% age and effective for everyone you will never have it, not now, not in a year, nor in 50 years.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

I think being unable to work without being vaccinated is a reasonable definition of coercion.

I don't. I see it as similar to making airline pilots have a regular sight test, or removing the driving licence from people with certain medical conditions. Their freedoms to do what they want to do have to be limited for the sake of keeping the rest of us safe.

@MistressoftheDarkSide I'm a dental nurse and legally can't work without certain vaccinations, I don't see how this is any different

@MistressoftheDarkSide

I think being unable to work without being vaccinated is a reasonable definition of coercion.

Being unable to work yes of course @MistressoftheDarkSide

But that's a pretty disingenuous statement as that's not what's happening. Mandatory vaccination in certain healthcare roles is not a new policy.

I think being unable to work without being vaccinated is a reasonable definition of coercion.

Whether it does or not isn't relevant. The Nuremberg Code doesn't apply here.

The first principle of the Nuremberg Code applies to consent ^for medical experiments'.

The vaccine rollout does not qualify as a medical experiment. The vaccines have been through clinical trials, with the appropriate ethics in place, and are now authorised. They are no longer in the experimental phase. The ongoing gathering of data does not cause it to be an experiment (otherwise all drugs would be experimental).

Informed consent still applies, and there are interesting discussions to be had about requiring vaccines for some high risk roles (we don't seem as interested in having those discussions around vaccines for other illnesses though, one could almost think that it's a convenient smokescreen) but the Nuremberg Code is not relevant.

It's almost like the word 'Nuremberg' carries such weight in relation to Nazi atrocities that people don't think their arguments will stand up to scrutiny without a cover of moral disgust and panic.

Let's have debates on morally or ethically problematic issues on their own merits.

Is it really going to stop at healthcare though?

Surely testing is the key to prevent transmission. The vaccine reduces, not eliminates, transmission. If - and it's a big if in my opinion - asymptomatic transmission is a significant problem - reliance on vaccination status is creating a false sense of security.

*You've decided you and your family will probably be amongst the fortunate ones who survive Covid and don't get long Covid. Do you have any basis for this, or is it just blind optimism?
*
I mean, I'd say the actual statistics that point to the overwhelming likelihood that most people are likely to recover just fine from covid is a pretty good basis.

Bold fail 🤦🏻‍♀️

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Is it really going to stop at healthcare though?

Surely testing is the key to prevent transmission. The vaccine reduces, not eliminates, transmission. If - and it's a big if in my opinion - asymptomatic transmission is a significant problem - reliance on vaccination status is creating a false sense of security.

But you're using this argument (which does not yet exist and there's no evidence it will) to back up the idea people are being coerced into vaccination because they won't be able to work. Surely you can see how it's not applicable?

The vaccine reduces transmission as you have said. This means that, compared to a group of unvaccinated care workers, there will be far less transmission and if there is, lower viral load exposure which is associated with better clinical outcomes. Vaccination does not "create a false sense of security", it reduces risk.

@IHTC I'm teaching my child to do the same and I do actually respect your decision too.

I do think there is a difference between those who, rightly or wrongly, have concerns and choose not to have this specific vaccine at the moment - as is their right - and those who forcefully and recklessly push anti-vaccination spiel at others, often containing misinformation, some of it dangerous.

I hope to bring up a child able to make sensible and balanced decisions, as do you. I also trust that enough people will come to the decision to take the vaccine to render these arguments pointless. We were never going to have a situation where everyone took it but I think enough people will. The two sides are so entrenched that these threads are just an exercise in shouting into the void.

[quote IHTC]@rampantivy

I was wondering how long it would take someone to hint I'm selfish

I'm selfish in the sense that I will always put myself and my family before strangers. It's human nature and anyone who denies this is kidding themselves. If you've had a vaccine, you've had it to protect you. Not Dorris, age 95 in Cornwall or me.

Likewise, I've chosen not to have it as I'm doing what I think is best for me and my family.[/quote]
If you were putting your family first you would be vaccinated to protect them. You are actually putting them at risk.

My brother is refusing to get it. Our neighbour is a nurse in itu, shes saying most of the patients on ventilators are under 50. This really scares me.

It's not just about being able to work in certain fields.

Have the vaccine so you can go to church.
Have the vaccine so you can go to a wedding, funeral, bingo and many places that have a lot of people there.

The definition of coercion is the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

Which part of get a vaccine so you can get a passport is not using threats?

Or how about coercive control

Isolating you from your support system.
Denying you freedom and autonomY
Coercive control is a strategic form of ongoing oppression and terrorism used to instill fear. The abuser will use tactics, such as limiting access to money or monitoring all communication, as a controlling effort.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Is it really going to stop at healthcare though?

Surely testing is the key to prevent transmission. The vaccine reduces, not eliminates, transmission. If - and it's a big if in my opinion - asymptomatic transmission is a significant problem - reliance on vaccination status is creating a false sense of security.

The combination of infection prevention and secondary transmission prevention helps to prevent a wall against the virus getting established.

It's the reason why our exit wave once herd immunity is reached (via vaccine + infection) will be so much higher and longer, as we're going in with high amounts of virus circulating - so many more opportunities to find the holes in the wall.

There are a lot of issues with testing. Who do you test? How often do you test? what do you do with the results? How do you ensure compliance with the impacts of testing, and moderate the impact of testing impacts on the economy and people's lives? How do you manage the impact of a long incubation period and infectious period?

The combination of infection/transmission prevention above builds a pretty sturdy wall, albeit with cracks, once we get down to lower levels. On an individual basis, a double vaccinated person presents a much, much lower risk of transmission to others than an unvaccinated person who was tested three days ago with an LFT.