I understand why people are against vaccine passports but...

[User135644]

I understand why people are against vaccine passports, but a lot of those most vocal against it are the usual crowd who have been anti-lockdown and anti-mask throughout (and often anti-vaccine). They won't accept vaccine passports but will be the first to complain if and when nightclubs are forced to close again due to the impact of the virus which without vaccines would already be a lot worse with the Delta variant.

They can't always have it both ways.

The fact that a negative test will no longer be sufficient is very telling in terms of the government’s motive being to coerce people into vaccination.

It is going to apply to other places, not just nightclubs

@LizzieSiddal

So it IS a threat to gain control then

Gain control of what? And for what purpose?

The purpose of control, is control. The purpose of power, is power.

It's not a means. It is an end.

Weird hey the passport won't be required if enough young get the vaccination. Yet the very same people are advising against healthy young people under 16 to not have it because it's not really beneficial so won't be offered to them.

I don't understand why you need proof of vaccination, not proof of immunity.

Vast numbers of young people have had coronavirus. If you're young you're being forced to get vaccinated against a disease that does you harm, and you're already immune to.

This is unprecedented and sinister, and it's just going to play into the hands of the antivax crew.

@EnidSpyton

This is a very slippery slope. The thin end of the wedge. Essentially forcing people into having a vaccine by restricting their movement and choices if they don’t have it is akin to living in a totalitarian dictatorship.

The vaccine is not risk free to younger people. For young healthy people the risks of COVID do not necessarily outweigh the risks of the vaccine. I don’t trust the government or their scientific advisors as far as I could throw them. The amount of governmental lying, back-pedalling and gaslighting that’s gone on during this pandemic, not to mention the backhanders to Boris and co’s mates to set up covid related money making schemes, should be enough to make anyone stop and question. The vaccine is being presented as a magic bullet out of this pandemic when it couldn’t be further from the truth - it doesn’t stop you transmitting or catching covid, just being severely ill with it - but because the government has failed on all fronts to successfully manage our way out of this through any other means, they’re touting the vaccine as the be all and end all and ensuring the media is bleating the same message. He who pays the piper plays the tune. Now it’s all going to be people who don’t have the vaccine’s fault if things get out of control again - see the Guardian’s latest missive from ‘an NHS doctor’ (yeah right) basically saying the people in hospital severely ill with covid are all stupid vaccine deniers who know they’ve been stupid now and wish they’d made different decisions (one can’t help wondering whether doctors feel the same about covid sufferers who are severely ill due to lifestyle induced underlying illnesses or conditions?) - and the government can therefore wash their hands of all responsibility.

What depresses me is how few people see this for what it really is. Mass coercion and mass control. No one should be forced to put anything in their body that they don’t want in it. Our most fundamental human right is the freedom to choose what happens to our bodies. If we lose that then we’ve got far greater problems to worry about than covid. People need to step back and see the bigger picture here. This is not just about the vaccine. It’s about the government testing how far they can erode our rights without us complaining by using fear as a distraction. Sadly it seems we’re tottering very close to the cliff edge at the moment and most people don’t even seem to have noticed we’re about to take a very nasty fall onto the rocks below. A vaccine passport sounds innocuous until suddenly you can’t leave the country because your papers aren’t in order. Honestly, so many of you who think this is no big deal need to read up on the 1930s in Nazi Germany. They didn’t know what was coming either.

Perfectly put, thank you

The purpose of control, is control. The purpose of power, is power

Eh?

the introduction of vaccine passports is simply the back door to compulsory vaccination for all (it's already been voted for in parliament that all care home staff will have to be vaccinated)

The 4 principles of informed consent:

1. You must have the capacity (or ability) to make the decision.

2. The medical provider must disclose information on the treatment, test, or procedure in question, including the expected benefits and risks, and the likelihood (or probability) that the benefits and risks will occur.

3. You must comprehend the relevant information.

4. You must voluntarily grant consent, without coercion or duress.

#2 is barely met as we do not yet have enough long-term data to ascertain the likelihood and severity of risks. However, under emergency use authorisation there is an argument that this is just about met.

If the latest Govt policy does go ahead, #4 is not at all met and this is a serious divergence from where we have been as a society. It is, in principle, a hideous precedent.

It's not a Nudge if "Govt sources" are already announcing via Newsnight that it won't happen.

The highest risk indoor gathering of all ages in close proximity is churches. So why focus on Nightclubs other than to set the young up to take the fall for inevitable vaccine failure?

They can't always have it both ways.

They may not actually get it both ways on this occasion, but that doesn't mean their position is inherently contradictory or impossible. A person can believe both that vaccination/vaccine passports shouldn't be required, and that nightclubs and other businesses shouldn't be forced to close if covid cases spike. It's perfectly possible to do neither of those things, it just means there will probably be more covid cases. The belief that that's preferable to the other options is an opinion, not a violation of the laws of physics.

Why not go one further to ensure th at certain households don't go over 2 children.
Give certain groups of women the injection/implant to ensure they cannot have children?

Reducing the number of children that are born helps us all out doesn't it?

Is uptake among the young so bad that they have to resort to vaccine passports? I admit I haven't kept up.

Current Covid status and not recent historical Covid vaccination status is the only issue that matters.

Double and soon triple vaccination is safest overall benefit over risk approach but no longer a guarantee of Indian Johnson Covid variants free.

Ideally freshly tested Covid free, double jabbed, single masked and possibly recovered anti bodies may be the least likely to be Covid prone and positive at any time. Unless perhaps serial clubber etc.

Covid passports are ideal to separate vaccinated from anti vaxxer Covidiots but there may be pregnant ladies and a very small rare minority of disabled that may not benefit from vaccination and so these medically shielding vulnerable should be afforded appropriate adjustments to be mixing within open society too and not locked away unless hospitalised by necessity.

Covid passports are handy but fresh Covid test status is most important to separate the healthy from ill so that the later can be treated accordingly.

For me, the rights of individuals, whilst obviously important, need to be eclipsed by the greater good in a situation such as this. This pandemic is the ultimate test of teamwork and we're clearly pretty shit at it in this country.

I can see the flaws and imperfections here but surely the basic logic behind vaccine/immunity passports is blindingly obvious?

Obviously there would need to be exemptions.

eggman the Heath Minister has symptomatic infection and is double jabbed. What basic logic?

Teamwork? Please. We’re all in this together - until we’re not. Until I don’t have to isolate because I’m an important businessman so I’ll slip you a few quid to bypass the system. Until I can open my industry because I can bribe the government more than others due to them wanting free tickets to what I’m offering. Until I can keep on working from home, keeping myself ‘safe’ while loads of other people keep slaving away in the trenches to bring me the stuff I need while I stay safe in my middle class tower of misplaced virtue.

We’ve never been a team and we’ve never all been in this together. Don’t swallow the WWII rhetoric. Boris fancies himself as Churchill but this isn’t a war and we certainly aren’t winning anything.

The logic behind the vaccine passport IS blindingly obvious, yes, and it’s absolutely nothing to do with covid.

The basic logic is that we're less likely to contract and pass on Covid when we're double-vaxxed or have contracted the virus.

And just because our leaders are self-serving shitheads it doesn't mean that we have to be.

Why should some people get to do exactly what they want and take no responsibility for the impact of their actions

Well it seems to have worked for RBKC

EnidSpyton

Excellent post. Couldn't agree more.

Of course there's some logic.
Go and read why some wanted us to have an ID card several years ago. We didn't have the same tech as we do now and even then it was alarming. Look at the objections that were mentioned and the reasons why it never went through.

Still think it's a good idea when we have things now around like facial recognition that we didn't have then.

Never mind how many times have the government had data breaches.

For me, the rights of individuals, whilst obviously important, need to be eclipsed by the greater good in a situation such as this.

We have now reached the situation where covid is largely a manageable illness for those who choose to be vaccinated. More people die daily of suicide than covid, despite covid rates being exceptionally high. It simply isn't the same as the position we were in March 2020 or Jan 2021.

While I agree that sometimes the good of the many outweighs the rights of the individual - I supported lockdown 1, masks, and mostly supported lockdown 2. However, I can't see how the current situation justifies coercing people in to medical treatment.

@DecayedStrumpet

I'm generally opposed to ID cards etc and pro civil liberties, but I can't really see the problem with needing to be vaccinated aaginst a disease before you enter an area where there's an increased risk of transmission of said disease.

Can someone spell it out to me? Ideally without shouting?

Sure: Today mandated masks were lifted by "law" however many private establishments such as supermarkets still required them for entry and any private venue has the right to refuse admission (for non-discriminatory reasons). Likewise, as soon as covid passports exist for mandated entry to clubs they will also be requested for entry into other establishments - hairdressers, nail bars, supermarkets.

A passport is a document to cross borders, but try opening a bank account without one.

@Canigooutyet

Why not go one further to ensure th at certain households don't go over 2 children. Give certain groups of women the injection/implant to ensure they cannot have children?

Reducing the number of children that are born helps us all out doesn't it?

I genuinely don't see how this is comparable to potential domestic coronavirus vaccine passports

Egg, only the double vaccinated will be allowed in. Natural immunity doesn't seem to play a role with corona for some reason. Remember if you've had the virus still get the vaccine because....

This is something Tony Blair is pushing for. If you didn’t already think it was a bad idea, that fact should do it.