Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

I understand why people are against vaccine passports but...

466 replies

User135644 · 19/07/2021 20:05

I understand why people are against vaccine passports, but a lot of those most vocal against it are the usual crowd who have been anti-lockdown and anti-mask throughout (and often anti-vaccine). They won't accept vaccine passports but will be the first to complain if and when nightclubs are forced to close again due to the impact of the virus which without vaccines would already be a lot worse with the Delta variant.

They can't always have it both ways.

OP posts:
random9876 · 19/07/2021 22:38

Hmm. I am less sure. I haven‘t been out very much, but when I’ve gone out for the odd meal, I’ve kind of gravitated to places where people are (by age) likely to be mainly double jabbed. Bet the venues prefer people less likely to infect their staff/lead to isolations. Just reduces (not eliminates) risks. Many people will want that reassurance in the same way they don‘t want people smoking next to them. There are different people‘s rights involved.

vegas888 · 19/07/2021 22:39

In the news tonight that 60% of hospital admissions for covid are people who have had both vaccines, so how does that work 😒

AlecTrevelyan006 · 19/07/2021 22:44

@DecayedStrumpet

I'm generally opposed to ID cards etc and pro civil liberties, but I can't really see the problem with needing to be vaccinated aaginst a disease before you enter an area where there's an increased risk of transmission of said disease.

Can someone spell it out to me? Ideally without shouting?

mission creep
Chessie678 · 19/07/2021 22:44

OP I think that you are starting from a premise that covid rates must be controlled in some way regardless of the collateral damage and that therefore, if you don't accept some methods to control rates e.g. lockdowns, you must accept other methods. You are also assuming that lockdowns, masks and vaccine passports are each effective ways to reduce covid rates and / or save lives.

The anti-lockdowns / anti-mask people you are talking about are unlikely to accept one or more of these statements. This is where the dissonance comes from. If you don't believe that masks are effective, you are not going to believe that they are a viable alternative to lockdown (and this is not such a crazy position - it was reported that an expert from SAGE claims that cloth masks are almost completely ineffective in asymptomatic people the other day).

I'm firmly anti-lockdown and, for me, lockdown is orders of magnitude worse than masks or vaccine passports due to the catastrophic harm it does. I'm surprised that lockdown was so easily accepted whereas there is quite a lot of pushback on masks and vaccine passports - for me the focus is on the wrong thing.

However, I'd probably say I'm anti-mask too because I think there is too little evidence of them significantly reducing case rates over a long period of time to justify a mask mandate. If you compare the strength of mask mandates in different countries / states it is difficult to see a significant correlation between strong mask laws and lower covid deaths, particularly when you control for other variables. I also think they have significant downsides. I've worn a mask when required throughout and will continue to do so in some settings in order to reassure nervous people however.

In terms of vaccine passports, I don't believe that vaccine passports for nightclubs will significantly impact case rates of covid and I don't think the government believes that either. I think, as you seem to, that they are a soft coercion method to get more people vaccinated. I don't think people should be threatened in this way in order to induce them to get medical treatment that they arguably don't need when the use of the vaccine passport itself has no provable public health benefit. It is fundamentally dishonest and sets a horrible precedent (should HIV positive people be denied entry to clubs too?). I might be more in favour if there was strong evidence of the use of vaccine passports significant reducing transmission and saving lives but there isn't so far as I can see. (And I say this as someone who is very pro vaccine in general but also pro bodily autonomy). It also seems fundamentally unnecessary to me - vaccine rates in the UK are extremely high and we haven't exhausted options for persuading more people to get vaccinated without coercion.

So that's how you can hold these three views at the same time. There is a libertarian thread to this in that I believe that strong evidence should be required to support measures which significantly limit an individual's freedom and that there are some things which no government should ever do (e.g. banning people from seeing their family). (Though I don't personally think it is extreme libertarianism to object to the government imprisoning innocent people in their homes for months or coercing people to accept a medical treatment in order to live a normal life.)

WouldBeGood · 19/07/2021 22:45

@vegas888

In the news tonight that 60% of hospital admissions for covid are people who have had both vaccines, so how does that work 😒
@vegas888 that’s now been retracted
LavendulaAngustifolia · 19/07/2021 22:45

I should not have to provide a medical history just to listen to my favourite band play music.

Canigooutyet · 19/07/2021 22:46

Vega there has since been an update by Valance on Twitter. He seems to have made an error.

WouldBeGood · 19/07/2021 22:47

@LavendulaAngustifolia

I should not have to provide a medical history just to listen to my favourite band play music.
Quite @LavendulaAngustifolia
2boysand1princess · 19/07/2021 22:52

My issue with some that don’t want the vaccine is that they are absolutely fine with you and I to get the vaccine to bring case numbers down and lead to herd immunity. However, they won’t do their bit to contribute and come up with all sorts of “excuses” to not have it. My sister won’t get it. She says that eventually covid will reduce to such low numbers due to the amount of people getting the vaccine that herd immunity will be achieved and she will become protected as a result.
I’m not vulnerable and neither is my DH, yet we got the vaccine to help stop this pandemic. Our businesses or jobs have never been at risk throughout the pandemic either.

EnidSpyton · 19/07/2021 22:54

This is a very slippery slope. The thin end of the wedge. Essentially forcing people into having a vaccine by restricting their movement and choices if they don’t have it is akin to living in a totalitarian dictatorship.

The vaccine is not risk free to younger people. For young healthy people the risks of COVID do not necessarily outweigh the risks of the vaccine. I don’t trust the government or their scientific advisors as far as I could throw them. The amount of governmental lying, back-pedalling and gaslighting that’s gone on during this pandemic, not to mention the backhanders to Boris and co’s mates to set up covid related money making schemes, should be enough to make anyone stop and question. The vaccine is being presented as a magic bullet out of this pandemic when it couldn’t be further from the truth - it doesn’t stop you transmitting or catching covid, just being severely ill with it - but because the government has failed on all fronts to successfully manage our way out of this through any other means, they’re touting the vaccine as the be all and end all and ensuring the media is bleating the same message. He who pays the piper plays the tune. Now it’s all going to be people who don’t have the vaccine’s fault if things get out of control again - see the Guardian’s latest missive from ‘an NHS doctor’ (yeah right) basically saying the people in hospital severely ill with covid are all stupid vaccine deniers who know they’ve been stupid now and wish they’d made different decisions (one can’t help wondering whether doctors feel the same about covid sufferers who are severely ill due to lifestyle induced underlying illnesses or conditions?) - and the government can therefore wash their hands of all responsibility.

What depresses me is how few people see this for what it really is. Mass coercion and mass control. No one should be forced to put anything in their body that they don’t want in it. Our most fundamental human right is the freedom to choose what happens to our bodies. If we lose that then we’ve got far greater problems to worry about than covid. People need to step back and see the bigger picture here. This is not just about the vaccine. It’s about the government testing how far they can erode our rights without us complaining by using fear as a distraction. Sadly it seems we’re tottering very close to the cliff edge at the moment and most people don’t even seem to have noticed we’re about to take a very nasty fall onto the rocks below. A vaccine passport sounds innocuous until suddenly you can’t leave the country because your papers aren’t in order. Honestly, so many of you who think this is no big deal need to read up on the 1930s in Nazi Germany. They didn’t know what was coming either.

Feelingoktoday · 19/07/2021 22:55

I’m going to a camping festival soon. I have to show a Covid passport or a negative Covid test result via the nhs app. My Covid passport is incorrect as it only has one vaccine on it. Currently the nhs app people are investigating. It’s just rubbish.

RolloTomassi · 19/07/2021 23:00

@EnidSpyton totally agree with you, well said.

bluetongue · 19/07/2021 23:00

@2boysand1princess

My issue with some that don’t want the vaccine is that they are absolutely fine with you and I to get the vaccine to bring case numbers down and lead to herd immunity. However, they won’t do their bit to contribute and come up with all sorts of “excuses” to not have it. My sister won’t get it. She says that eventually covid will reduce to such low numbers due to the amount of people getting the vaccine that herd immunity will be achieved and she will become protected as a result. I’m not vulnerable and neither is my DH, yet we got the vaccine to help stop this pandemic. Our businesses or jobs have never been at risk throughout the pandemic either.
That’s how I feel as well.

‘Vaccinate the vulnerable’ worked for earlier versions of Covid but unfortunately doesn’t work for delta. Vaccination rates need to be really high to provide anything approaching here immunity and probably need to include children as well.

I got the vaccine partly to do my bit to open society back up as well as protect myself. I’m much more scared of never getting life as it was before crack than I am of Covid itself.

I hate the idea of vaccine passports too but it’s probably the least bad option at the moment.

Unnbloodybelievable · 19/07/2021 23:00

Let’s not forget that those of us who saw this coming over a year ago have had an incredibly hard time for speaking up.

Not everyone has sleepwalked into it. Some of us were wide awake, and have been called allsorts.

userperuser · 19/07/2021 23:01

@Unnbloodybelievable

Let’s not forget that those of us who saw this coming over a year ago have had an incredibly hard time for speaking up.

Not everyone has sleepwalked into it. Some of us were wide awake, and have been called allsorts.

Yep I’ve had this for a long time. Particularly on these threads.
LizzieSiddal · 19/07/2021 23:03

They’ve just said on the news (sorry can’t remember which channel) that if enough younger people do get the vaccine, they won’t introduce the passports.

LizzieSiddal · 19/07/2021 23:05

My issue with some that don’t want the vaccine is that they are absolutely fine with you and I to get the vaccine to bring case numbers down and lead to herd immunity. However, they won’t do their bit to contribute and come up with all sorts of “excuses” to not have it.

Agree. It’s like my friend who wouldn’t vaccinate her DC against anything. She said because almost every other baby was vaccinated, hers would be ok.Angry

WouldBeGood · 19/07/2021 23:06

I do think it’s the nudge department on it again to force young people into it

Unnbloodybelievable · 19/07/2021 23:06

@LizzieSiddal

They’ve just said on the news (sorry can’t remember which channel) that if enough younger people do get the vaccine, they won’t introduce the passports.
So it IS a threat to gain control then?
userperuser · 19/07/2021 23:07

@LizzieSiddal

They’ve just said on the news (sorry can’t remember which channel) that if enough younger people do get the vaccine, they won’t introduce the passports.
Sounds like my abusive ex….
XenoBitch · 19/07/2021 23:08

@WouldBeGood

I do think it’s the nudge department on it again to force young people into it
Of course it is. Nudge is exactly what it is.
SonnetForSpring · 19/07/2021 23:08

I am pro choice. But I feel like if nightclubs are going to continue, then something has to give... people have to reduce the associated risk by being vaccinated. There are no easy answers.

Unnbloodybelievable · 19/07/2021 23:12

@SonnetForSpring

I am pro choice. But I feel like if nightclubs are going to continue, then something has to give... people have to reduce the associated risk by being vaccinated. There are no easy answers.
Why not sports stadiums? Theatres? Gyms?

It’s a threat tactic to get the young to comply. No more or less.

Unnbloodybelievable · 19/07/2021 23:13

I am pro choice. But

Also, ‘pro choice’ doesn’t come with caveats.
If you are only ‘pro choice’ when people are making choices you agree with, then you’re not pro choice.

LizzieSiddal · 19/07/2021 23:14

So it IS a threat to gain control then

Gain control of what? And for what purpose?