I understand why people are against vaccine passports but...

[User135644]

I understand why people are against vaccine passports, but a lot of those most vocal against it are the usual crowd who have been anti-lockdown and anti-mask throughout (and often anti-vaccine). They won't accept vaccine passports but will be the first to complain if and when nightclubs are forced to close again due to the impact of the virus which without vaccines would already be a lot worse with the Delta variant.

They can't always have it both ways.

Oh
I don't know why you as fully vaccinated person can't travel into UK from Amber countries without quarantine on arrival
Possibly travelling from red countries? Not permanent resident in England? Not vaccinated through NHS?
Oh, only discussing exemptions as government already exempt under 18s from quarantine if they arrive from Amber county and are residing in England
Sorry don't know the rules for Scotland, Wales and NI
The reason behind it was that they can't have the jab
The same with over 18s who can't have it
Hence me trying to figure out what provision are there for that specific very small group of people

*In meantime, some of the precedents being established are awful. They matter because legal systems work according to precedent. Bodily autonomy? Chuck that principle. Burden of risk carried by individuals? Forget that. Cost-benefit-analysis, evidence-based-medicine? Neah, we want precautionary principle instead. Climate Change? Who cares, only covid matters now.

Zero covid? Sure, let's go for that at any price*

This puts it so well! It completely negates bodily autonomy. All the people who say 'we'll choices have consequences' seem to not be able to realise that there's a difference between natural consequences (being more at risk of covid) vs consequences imposed on you by other people (suddenly not allowed to do things decided by others). What next? We limit the number of abortions a woman can have because choices have consequences and you should've learnt your lesson the first time. I am double vaxxed, I actually do think anyone who isn't vaxxed is making a stupid choice for their own health) like I think anyone who smokes cigarettes is making a stupid choice in the same way), and I'm sure other people think I make stupid choices for my own health sometimes too (drinking, extreme sports etc). But I will fight for their right to make that stupid choice for them self because I believe In bodily autonomy. *
*
I'm not talking about people who are opposed to vaccine passports purely on principle, whether they've had the vaccine or not, but haven't thrown a shit fit about lockdowns when they've been necessary, or wearing a mask here and there.

What about people who were opposed to the lockdown on principle too? Not just that they were 'bored' and 'not resilient' (as so many Mnetters like to say). But because they disagreed with so many aspects of it: like the government having absolute control, like the poor being made poorer whilst the rich got richer, like low paid workers still putting themselves at risk everyday so they could serve the middle/upper classes ability to stay home and feel all virtuous about 'doing their bit'. Like a million other reasons people we're against lockdown on principle and not just because they were bored. Are those people allowed to oppose coercive vaccines too?

@MrsBillyNoJagNoMates

MareofBeasttown I have family in 3 different countries and have to quarantine every time even though all of us are double vaxxed, even the young ones. I havent seen any of my family for a year and in some cases 2 years. Time for the fully vaxxed to get some benefits surely?

Sorry don't understand
Are you being sarcastic?
Obviously fully vaxxed are enjoying the benefits of the jabs, or are they not???
So benefit of not going to die IF they catch the virus and also high likelihood of having very mild or no symptoms.
Or do they also need a medal for their health being good enough to be able to have jabs which highly protects them from covid and all covid complications?
🤔🤔🤔

You forgot the fact they transmit less. Maybe recognise that?

Actually British residents are not allowed to enter several countries even if vaxxed, even with quarantine. Total confusion. About time there were benefits for the fully vaxxed in all areas of life. And yes, I appreciate the benefit of not dying or being hospitalized. But I want more now.

I do think it’s very wrong.
I’ve seen myself that having 2 injections certainly doesn’t stop a positive test result and transmission among others.

Society has become so incredibly sad now with such a lot of hate and divide among people. I’ve done everything I can to keep myself as ‘safe’ as I can and I’m sure most others have done the same in what way they deem appropriate so it’s none of my business if they’ve had injections or not.

Therefore I wouldn’t go to or use any business that required a ‘passport’, I’d much rather if going somewhere with a large capacity, that everyone had a test regardless of their injection status.

sleepwouldbenice

You forgot the fact they transmit less. Maybe recognise that?

Oh well, there is that as well
But I was talking about benefits to vaccinated person.

MareofBeasttown

Oh yes , tell me about it
As a resident of UK I know quite well
And we all usually want more than we have/get
But my point was that I don't get the health benefits of vaccine
And am being punished and verbally abused for not being able to have
But hey ho
Life is not fair, is it???

Back on July 19th less than 50% of the population was double vaccinated, presumably would not have gone down well (and had substantial impact on the economy) if vaccine passports were brought in when for so many it would not physically possible to be part of the scheme

Actually think it was nearer 55%

I just think it should have been done the other way round so when enough people were vaccinated we could then do away with them. As it stands they are coming in when most people will have been vaccinated and there doesn’t seem to be a date or time in the future when we can get rid of them.

@Bythemillpond

Back on July 19th less than 50% of the population was double vaccinated, presumably would not have gone down well (and had substantial impact on the economy) if vaccine passports were brought in when for so many it would not physically possible to be part of the scheme

Actually think it was nearer 55%

I just think it should have been done the other way round so when enough people were vaccinated we could then do away with them. As it stands they are coming in when most people will have been vaccinated and there doesn’t seem to be a date or time in the future when we can get rid of them.

Well considering we were only at 53% a couple of weeks ago I don't see how that can be correct

But I'm not sure why you're quibbling over numbers when it doesn't really make a difference? There are lots of aspects of vaccine passports (that don't include testing as an alternative) that are unfair, which are discussed on this thread.

The point of a vaccine or immunity passport isn't to set it up when people aren't vaccinated to try and coerce them into it (or to try and deliberately get infected which was a worry last year), it's a system designed to minimise transmission of an infectious disease agent.

Mandating them when not everyone has had the option to be fully vaccinated, is even more unfair, and will impact of the economy as you'll be preventing younger people from going out and spending when they're waiting on being vaccinated.

Apparently its going to be self declare. Because that worked well for masks didnt it.

twitter.com/northerness/status/1419667133915537414?s=20

[quote MercyBooth]Apparently its going to be self declare. Because that worked well for masks didnt it.

twitter.com/northerness/status/1419667133915537414?s=20[/quote]
I’d like to say this surprised me but sadly it doesn’t. Bet those within the UK won’t be permitted to ‘self declare’.

Ah just realised that implies that UK residents can self declare. Be interesting to see what the list of exemptions are then.

[quote MercyBooth]Apparently its going to be self declare. Because that worked well for masks didnt it.

twitter.com/northerness/status/1419667133915537414?s=20[/quote]
I would assume you'd think this was a good thing @MercyBooth?

If you can self-declare exemption in the same way you can for masks this offers a loophole for anyone who doesn't want to go ahead with vaccination

leafyygreens

I can see why you would think that but it doesn’t remove the slippery slope of what could easily become digital identity and actually this is even more proof (if any was needed) that vaccine passports are farcical.

@userperuser

leafyygreens

I can see why you would think that but it doesn’t remove the slippery slope of what could easily become digital identity and actually this is even more proof (if any was needed) that vaccine passports are farcical.

that vaccine passports are farcical.

Why do you think that? In general or the proposed situation in the UK? Personally, I think it's reasonable way to roll out the scheme - the effort of having to apply for self-exemption may lead some people on the fence to go ahead, whereas anyone genuinely opposed doesn't need to choose between being vaccinated and having additional restrictions.

the slippery slope of what could easily become digital identity
I keep seeing this bandied about, but what you do actually mean? It's a vaccine passport, no more, no less.

leafyygreens

It’s farcical if anybody can simply self declare themselves exempt and I’m not really understanding the mentality of thinking that exempt means safe. In any case in previous posts you have said that you are not in favour of them.

If you cannot see how a vaccine passport could end up in digital identity I won’t waste my evening trying to convince you.

@userperuser

leafyygreens

It’s farcical if anybody can simply self declare themselves exempt and I’m not really understanding the mentality of thinking that exempt means safe. In any case in previous posts you have said that you are not in favour of them.

If you cannot see how a vaccine passport could end up in digital identity I won’t waste my evening trying to convince you.

Where have I said that exempt means safe? Firstly dichotomisation is not helpful when talking about COVID risk, and secondly, exemption would be replaced by a negative result. I think it would cut out a lot of hassle, given this development, if it was simply proof of vaccination or a negative test, but we shall see.

I've said I'm not in favour of a domestic COVID passport that doesn't allow negative testing as an alternative to vaccination, as IMO no-one should be having to get a vaccination they're not comfortable with.

If you cannot see how a vaccine passport could end up in digital identity I won’t waste my evening trying to convince you.
This is absolute, classic MN speak for I don't know how to articulate this idea or explain it with a logical rationale. I'm not asking to be convinced, I'm asking for some kind of further explanation than just "digital passport to control everyone". It goes alongside "I'm not going to spoonfeed you" and "do your own research".

Im going to try to attend a walk in clinic near me tomorrow and get Moderna IF i can get off my estate.

Its taken me ages to psych myself up to do it as i have concerns about being left to get on with it if something goes wrong.

leafyygreens

I’m not giving into to it. You have read on several threads on here now about the finer details of vaccine passports bring a creep towards digital identity. I do know how to articulate it fully but I’m not in the mood for pages of ‘but why’ and ‘please explain how’.

exemption would be replaced by a negative result

No it wouldn’t, the government have stated this already.

the slippery slope of what could easily become digital identity
I keep seeing this bandied about, but what you do actually mean? It's a vaccine passport, no more, no less.the slippery slope of what could easily become digital identity
I keep seeing this bandied about, but what you do actually mean? It's a vaccine passport, no more, no less.

Stop bothering with your oh so innocent posts leafyygreen. You are not fooling those who know something big is afoot.

I am finding that even the more "ordinary" people on the street so to speak, know that things are not right now.

And dont even bother trying to come back at me with a question, or a faux reply.

ooh, I see userperuser is of the exact same mind!

@MercyBooth

Its taken me ages to psych myself up to do it as i have concerns about being left to get on with it if something goes wrong.

I hope all goes well for you whatever you decide @MercyBooth

Even worth just going to talk through pros/cons and any concerns with a clinician there

@MercyBooth

Its taken me ages to psych myself up to do it as i have concerns about being left to get on with it if something goes wrong.

Good luck to you. Really hope goes well. Out of interest why not Pfizer? Sorry if I have missed something

@userperuser

leafyygreens

I’m not giving into to it. You have read on several threads on here now about the finer details of vaccine passports bring a creep towards digital identity. I do know how to articulate it fully but I’m not in the mood for pages of ‘but why’ and ‘please explain how’.

exemption would be replaced by a negative result

No it wouldn’t, the government have stated this already.

I'm not asking you to "give into anything", I'm simply saying I don't understand what you mean when you say a COVID vaccination passport could lead to "digital identity". When people ask me what I'm talking about I'm happy to expand, give links and sources to anyone interested.

No it wouldn’t, the government have stated this already.
The government first stated that vaccine passports would be required, negative tests would not be an alternative.
They are now stating anyone can self-exempt - given the large numbers of people, it is logical to assume they would require a negative test instead, but presumably they're making it up as they go along.

I just don't see how this latest development that anyone can self-exempt isn't anything but a good thing for anyone concerned about vaccine passports and why you seem insistent it's even worse? Presumably you would think it's even better if a negative test isn't required as an alternative? You literally do not have to take part in the vaccine passport scheme if you don't want to, you can excuse yourself from any links with "digital identity".

@MercyBooth

Its taken me ages to psych myself up to do it as i have concerns about being left to get on with it if something goes wrong.

I hope it goes well. I know from your posts on here that this is a difficult decision.