I understand why people are against vaccine passports but...

[User135644]

I understand why people are against vaccine passports, but a lot of those most vocal against it are the usual crowd who have been anti-lockdown and anti-mask throughout (and often anti-vaccine). They won't accept vaccine passports but will be the first to complain if and when nightclubs are forced to close again due to the impact of the virus which without vaccines would already be a lot worse with the Delta variant.

They can't always have it both ways.

@eggman007

The basic logic is that we're less likely to contract and pass on Covid when we're double-vaxxed or have contracted the virus.

And just because our leaders are self-serving shitheads it doesn't mean that we have to be.

Yes I do understand the scientific logic behind the vaccine. I don’t need you to explain it to me.

No one is being a ‘shithead’ if they choose not to have a vaccine. They are exercising their right to have autonomy over their own body.

Viruses and bacteria spread between hosts. That’s their job. We can’t control the virus and how it moves between people. We can mitigate it by being as careful as we can and taking what precautions we can but we can’t control it or prevent it from infecting people. As such it is ridiculous to place blame on anyone for catching or passing on a virus. The creation of a rhetoric of individual blame surrounding coronavirus is part of the government strategy to distract from their own colossal failures on so many fronts I can’t even begin to list them. Someone choosing not to have a vaccine does not make them to blame for anyone else’s illness or death. And it certainly doesn’t make them a self serving shithead.

@Sunnyfreezesushi

They are already doing Covid passports in Switzerland, a country with absolute democracy and eg Denmark. These are socially minded forward thinking countries. There is nothing to be scared of except this virus dominating our lives and killing vulnerable people. Even France are going to do it and they are very vocal about their rights.

Exactly this And pair with the alternative free option of twice weekly testing for those who aren't / won't bevaccinated I would prefer this option as a pragmatic solution which gives choice Not heard a decent argument against this yet??

sleepwouldbenice

The option of testing as an alternative is being removed as confirmed this evening.

@nordica Ever heard of a patch test?

@EnidSpyton

Teamwork? Please. We’re all in this together - until we’re not. Until I don’t have to isolate because I’m an important businessman so I’ll slip you a few quid to bypass the system. Until I can open my industry because I can bribe the government more than others due to them wanting free tickets to what I’m offering. Until I can keep on working from home, keeping myself ‘safe’ while loads of other people keep slaving away in the trenches to bring me the stuff I need while I stay safe in my middle class tower of misplaced virtue.

We’ve never been a team and we’ve never all been in this together. Don’t swallow the WWII rhetoric. Boris fancies himself as Churchill but this isn’t a war and we certainly aren’t winning anything.

The logic behind the vaccine passport IS blindingly obvious, yes, and it’s absolutely nothing to do with covid.

Fabulous post! Thanks!

Yeah, I think natural immunity should count too actually but I would guess this is more of a tech problem than anything else. However, I just can't get worked up about government coercion - not all control is the same and for me, this decision is an imperfect attempt at protecting our vulnerable, allowing our youth some freedoms and keeping businesses open.

@eggman007

Teamwork and the "greater good" sound like nice concepts but to spell out what you mean:

• In normal circumstances an individual has certain rights, including to bodily autonomy, and it is wrong to violate those.
• But here the end of the "greater good" of potentially protecting more people from covid, justifies the means (which involves eclipsing the rights of the individual).

A person's stance on this probably depends on their politics but personally I believe that some things are wrong, even if doing them could produce a great good for many people e.g. forced organ donation. Some of the greatest atrocities in history have been committed by people resorting to ever more immoral means to achieve a "greater good". Often the greater good for society never materialises and you are left with a large number of atrocities against individuals with nothing to show for them. This has been the issue with communism over and over. I think it is also the issue with our response to covid.

I don't think vaccine passports or being denied entry to clubs are in the same category as these sort of atrocities but, after a year in which people's most fundamental rights have been taken away for the "greater good" and justifiably low trust in government, you can see why people may see this as a slippery slope.

And added to that, where is the evidence (or even just modelling) to show that covid passports for nightclubs will actually save lives or prevent people getting seriously ill. I understand the "logic" but the logic is just a hypothesis. There are plenty of plausible sounding hypotheses which turn out not to be evidence backed.

To use my example from upthread, it's possible that excluding HIV positive people from certain activities would prevent then infecting others with HIV. This is a vaguely plausible hypothesis but I have no idea if it's true.

@userperuser

sleepwouldbenice

The option of testing as an alternative is being removed as confirmed this evening.

I know Just saying where I would personally like to see it pitched and responding to the OPs idea that many on here are simply against any restrictions or alternatives

To use my example from upthread, it's possible that excluding HIV positive people from certain activities would prevent then infecting others with HIV. This is a vaguely plausible hypothesis but I have no idea if it's true.

@Chessie678

It is now illegal to have unprotected sex with someone if you haven't told them you are HIV+. You could argue this is unfair and discriminatory, and no one should be forced to disclose a medical condition in order to take part in a normal activity that others do.

Restrictions and laws need to be proportional to the situation which they apply. I don't see how domestic COVID passports (to include negative tests as an alternative to vaccination) are disproportionate to the risk of coronavirus transmission, and this feeling is echoed in many other countries worldwide.

Chessie,

thanks for your insights, I read your post carefully and am trying to understand your perspective. I guess I just don't see this as a slippery slope like you do. Nightclubs are such hotbeds of transmission (look what happened in the Netherlands) that, for me, certain regulations need to surround them. My opinion is that we need to tread a sensible middle ground in order to balance freedoms for everyone and avoid yo-yoing restrictions.

I'm sorry that you feel that this may end up extending to all sorts of violations of our human rights. That would indeed be a terrifying scenario.

I can't see it happening myself but I do value everyone's right to an opinion on the matter.

@leafygreens HIV and covid are not remotely comparable.

Covid passports (involving testing) and vaccine passports are also not comparable. They are asking entirely different things of people and as such are two entirely different conversations.

[quote EnidSpyton]@leafygreens HIV and covid are not remotely comparable.

Covid passports (involving testing) and vaccine passports are also not comparable. They are asking entirely different things of people and as such are two entirely different conversations.[/quote]
At no point did I say they were, I was responding to another poster who brought HIV up as a comparator

As I said, restrictions and laws need to be proportional to the situation which they apply. I don't see how domestic COVID passports (to include negative tests as an alternative to vaccination) are disproportionate to the risk of coronavirus transmission, and this feeling is echoed in many other countries worldwide.

I highly doubt that passports that do not allow testing as an alternative would be rolled out in the UK, but if they were, I would be interested in hearing the arguments against them.

@eggman007

Chessie,

thanks for your insights, I read your post carefully and am trying to understand your perspective. I guess I just don't see this as a slippery slope like you do. Nightclubs are such hotbeds of transmission (look what happened in the Netherlands) that, for me, certain regulations need to surround them. My opinion is that we need to tread a sensible middle ground in order to balance freedoms for everyone and avoid yo-yoing restrictions.

I'm sorry that you feel that this may end up extending to all sorts of violations of our human rights. That would indeed be a terrifying scenario.

I can't see it happening myself but I do value everyone's right to an opinion on the matter.

Think about it for a second.

Which age groups most frequent nightclubs?

Under 30s.

Who mostly haven’t been vaccinated yet?

Under 30s.

How can we coerce more under 30s to get vaccinated?

Restrict access to spaces only under 30s mostly access.

If this doesn’t concern you then you need to wake up a bit.

Did you not see the amount of non socially distanced mixing at the football over the last month? Do you not think vaccine passports should have been necessary for that? If you’re using the same logic as you are for nightclubs, of course they should have been. But the government didn’t mandate that because they were given a backhander by the football industry.

The government isn’t mandating vaccine passports for nightclubs because they’re worried about transmission or because nightclubs are any worse for transmission than any other crowded space. They’re mandating it because they want to force more younger people into getting vaccinated.

This is what is concerning. The nightclub decision isn’t about public health, it’s about public control.

@Staffy1 I agree 100% with you about that. I heard Tony Blair saying on the radio that 'it's not socially responsible to not have the vaccine' and I nearly choked on my cup of tea! It was decidedly socially, and moreover morally, irresponsible (to put it mildly) to wreck the middle east with an illegal war.
Many of the main proponents of vaccine passports have dubious credentials, which speaks volumes.
I'm horrified by the idea of vaccine passports. I also think they're extremely ageist against the young. Very unfair.
Btw, I'm by no means a Covid denier, and I religiously stuck to all the lockdowns; and think I possibly have the biggest collection of facemasks in the kingdom!
But forced (or as good as) vaccines are a step far too far. A whole different ball game - we're talking about a medical treatment here... Forced medical treatment? Scary, scary stuff

@RhubarbTea

I cannot accept people being treated differently because of vaccine status, it is the beginning of a very, very slippery slope and I continue to find it astonishing how quickly people are willing to give up their freedoms.

This, times a million. I can't believe we are sleepwalking into this. I'm horrified by it.

Agree, this is utterly wrong

But the government didn’t mandate that because they were given a backhander by the football industry

And NO ONE is talking about the HUGE security issues at Wembley when people rushed in like that.

Oh hang on......................... spitting and pissing were mentioned if i recall. But no risk , move along nothing to see here...

twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1415663780730703872?s=20

talkRADIO
@talkRADIO
·
Jul 15
"It was absolutely petrifying. At no point did I feel safe.

"I've never seen anything like it."

Gary in York describes what it was like being at Wembley during the Euro 2020 final, telling Ian: "Everything was wrong from the very beginning.

@Bythemillpond

Unfortunately making covid passports compulsory to enter places is just what the tin hat brigade were warning us of.

I wonder what other things we dismissed as never going to happen will come about.

Good point🤔

Genuine question- as they have said that vaccines are only effective for 12 months and there is a lot of talk of boosters being required as early as this autumn and then ongoing annually, are people going to have to be on a constant cycle of vaccines to ensure their Covid passport remains valid? If not then surely the Covid passports are going to become irrelevant within a few months?
Because how many people are just going to keep going and being revaccinated? Also how is the country really going to manage giving everyone boosters in the autumn?
If the vaccines were conveying lifelong immunity then I could see a purpose in having a record of that immunity that you could carry with you, but if the vaccines have such a short efficacy then the government making this big song and dance about Covid passports seems abit farcical.

@CaraherEIL The logistics of all this is something that occurred to me too.

@CaraherEIL

Genuine question- as they have said that vaccines are only effective for 12 months and there is a lot of talk of boosters being required as early as this autumn and then ongoing annually, are people going to have to be on a constant cycle of vaccines to ensure their Covid passport remains valid? If not then surely the Covid passports are going to become irrelevant within a few months? Because how many people are just going to keep going and being revaccinated? Also how is the country really going to manage giving everyone boosters in the autumn? If the vaccines were conveying lifelong immunity then I could see a purpose in having a record of that immunity that you could carry with you, but if the vaccines have such a short efficacy then the government making this big song and dance about Covid passports seems abit farcical.

For the younger crowd, side effects tend to be more severe - not life-threatening, but definitely life-impacting, and for a longer time. That's why you see less uptake among that group in the US and other countries where they've been available to everyone for quite some time.

When I was vaccinated, I needed to miss several days of work, and got very little done for the rest of the week, so I functionally missed an entire week. I'm not willing to repeat that every 6-12 months for the next several decades. No employer is going to give me two extra consequence-free weeks off every year for boosters, and even if they did, I think this is simply too much to ask of me. I don't work in a hospital or a school, or do anything that requires anyone else to get within two meters of me. It's very easy for anyone worried about covid exposure to avoid me, but I think the responsibility is on them to do that, not on me to make it slightly less unsafe for them to eat at restaurants.

It's a slippery slope, what next, no healthcare for women who don't have smears & breast screening, compulsory contraception for people claiming benefits, it's the first step in taking away our rights over our own bodies & freedoms.

I think it's really really really wrong, and it's happening all over the world.

I feel sorry for the 17-year-olds too who are not eligible for the vaccines until they're 18, so will be banned from nightclubs for 12 weeks while they wait to be double vaxxed with a vaccine they don't even need and shouldn't have to get if they don't want to.