UK Covid Experiment

[ArmsofOrion]

Has anyone been watching these talks on YouTube. Seems like the rest of the world thinks the Uk is crazy for lifting all restrictions and I agree with them.

For anyone who doesn’t have their head buried in the sand it makes a very interesting discussion, not much you can argue with.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=a4imfAwdFMQ

[quote Pantene23]@mog27 some people will not produce antibodies to certain vaccines. In some cases they know why, in other they don’t. I needed a vaccine to do a healthcare course at uni. Three times I had it and I never produced antibodies. My daughter had to have her pre school jabs twice as she hadn’t produced antibodies to the first set. She did the second set. Obviously we had other health issues going on to even find out these things.[/quote]
I agree its a bit of a lottery with the vaccines and whether you will produce antibodies.

I am confused about one thing though, you dont hear of people catching measles or mumps, TB etc if they have been vacinated. Just wondering why the covid one is so different or is that to do with the amount of virus circulating, Flus jab is very effective too, except one year when they got the strain wrong.

Jenasaurus

You do occasionally hear of people catching mumps who've been vaccinated but in general of your list we have massive herd immunity or it's pretty much died out anyway - TB in particular

@LaurieFairyCake

Jenasaurus

You do occasionally hear of people catching mumps who've been vaccinated but in general of your list we have massive herd immunity or it's pretty much died out anyway - TB in particular

I hope Covid dies out soon too, but probably be a few years before we get to that stage.

On confusing U.K. and England, note that Scotland kept masks in secondary schools until the end of term, and at one point recently I understand Scotland had one of the highest rates in Europe. But we don’t need to be simplistic about it as in terms of absolute numbers England is so much higher in population, cases etc.

The DfE has been utterly disgraceful and shambolic since schools were first closed in March 2020, and I do think much more could have been done to avoid the huge numbers of isolations experienced by school age children. But equally we are where we are now, and schools are about to break up for the summer.

@NotMyCat

I can see the logic but... being CEV the thought of going into an office with no windows (so no ventilation), no masks, no distancing and unvaccinated people is really, really not appealing to me. Especially with no clue if being immunocompromised the vaccine has worked

Thankfully my boss seems happy to keep me home but I will be using occupational health otherwise. My consultant has advised FFP2 mask and not going back in

But how many CEV people are in the same boat? Covid tore through our office a year ago, and it could well happen again

I am CEV and back at work with more or less these conditions (due to the nature of my work) and it’s been fine from my point of view. But I wasn’t able to shield due to my circumstances so I have been used to increased risks in that respect all along. I hope employers will be understanding of people’s needs.

@Sunshinegirl82

It's odd, didn't Israel do pretty much the same thing? I can't remember there being much criticism of that decision?

They had a much higher % of the population vaccinated, with Pfizer, arguably a better vaccine plus of course we saw they had to roll back...... which seems to be ignored by many.

Bojo has always wanted to let CV rip, probably had this idea enforced after he had such a mild version (imho he went to ICU because of who he was, not because of how ill he was)
3rd highest number of daily infections in the world, so he has got his way.

IMHO we should have stayed with restrictions, not had the euros/tennis etc and eased when far more done with the 2nd dose.

In fact, it was probably best to keep SD and mask wearing until 2nd Gen vaccines developed.

I keep reading on here that the rest of the world is aghast at our great covid experiment but I’m reality are they?

I live in Canada and the majority of people probably don't have a clue about the UK's case case numbers or approach. I've mentioned it to people - even British people here - and they really aren't paying close attention. This country is generally more preoccupied with the US, where many states have much lower vaccination rates and far fewer restrictions than the UK (and their rates are going up too). The UK really isn't alone in this approach, but to read the UK MSM (Guardian, I'm looking at you) you wouldn't know it!

ZZTopGuitarSola I am glad that your schools did so well. But they managed to do that without Delta.

Apart from the National Closures, our school pretty much kept Covid out. Which meant my children suffered no further disruption. The mitigations that were put in place were excellent and they also all have a table which means that they all can access online learning. I guess some of it is luck, but most of it is down to excellent planning in the school.

That changed a week or so ago and Covid did get into the school. But then we have Delta now. And it's like nothing else that has come before.

The UK would have had hardly a ripple reopening with the Alpha variant! That's what you have managed to deal with so far. Many kids have in US did not have face to face learning for a very long time in the US which is a massive failure for them.

Please, please try and understand you have not felt the impacts of Delta yet perhaps in Maine it is so wonderful that you won't. Hopefully that will be the case. But it may also help you to reconcile yourself that this variant make cause your problems, because being forewarned is forearmed.

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

I have to eat dinner - this thread really has shown how many options there are that the UK has chosen not to take.

Good luck.

But the US has been similar to the UK on covid deaths throughout the pandemic. They jostle for position at around 19/20th. Last time I went to Maine, it had one busy coastal road dotted with towns and the rest of it was pretty empty, save for the trees.

The obsession with the U.K. being the worst in the World is weird. I have seen comments blaming the U.K. for the recent upsurge in Spain but they conveniently ignore that the Netherlands is having a similar problem. The latest Covid excess deaths tracker from the Economist (I can’t link on my phone as it shows the old data) puts the U.K. around 34th with an excess death rate lower than the US and a number of other European countries.

So what do you suggest we do? Stay in lockdowns for the next ten years where you will be blaming the government for that?

I think the U.K. is right, continuous lockdowns will not be the answer: and for those saying the government is thinking of the economy, well yes, of course that's a part in it and why on earth would it not be? We need an economy and Covid isn't going away. What would you prefer the government to do?

In a decade or so's time I reckon one of the big questions that people will keep on asking is "Why the fuck did the UK not go into lockdown in June 2021?".

What would you prefer the government to do?

People do seem determined to believe that the spread of the virus is 100% controllable by humans, so the government could simply stop it if it wanted.

Cases go up, it’s because people won’t wear masks/are flouting lockdowns/government is ‘letting’ people get infected. New variant, government ‘let it in’ or somehow made it happen. Anyone ever getting ill is something the government could have prevented and actively chose not to. Etc etc etc.

There are definitely things the government could do so much better even now, like raising SSP or putting in better employment protections to cover all those in the gig economy, or better support for people to isolate away from crowded households. But I don’t think any of these would just make it go away. I don’t know what it is that people imagine would? It always drifts off into vagueness about “robust border control” or “effective test trace isolate” without any real detail on what that would mean, or how it would be implemented, or what the costs would be and how they would outweigh the benefits.

But, again, we have those restrictions in place now don't we? And they haven't worked to stop cases rising.

No we don’t. We have allowed mass gatherings. We have removed masks in schools, we never did anything about ventilation. On top of that, test and trace hasn’t been properly applied and people haven’t been isolating as they should.

@GoldenOmber sorry I can't quote a section on the app, but in regards to the below;
It always drifts off into vagueness about “robust border control” or “effective test trace isolate” without any real detail on what that would mean, or how it would be implemented, or what the costs would be and how they would outweigh the benefits.

I agree. People seem to say these things as if they're so easy to do. It's easy to say oh I would do this, or that, but in reality they've got no clue how they would deal with it at the time unless they have all the information to hand.

People do seem determined to believe that the spread of the virus is 100% controllable by humans, so the government could simply stop it if it wanted.

Others seem to want to pretend it is entirely uncontrollable by humans and the government can do nothing about it.

The truth is somewhere in between. Some countries have done better than others. Those countries which were previously doing quite well are having to re-introduce mitigation measure are having to do so because other countries did poorly and that led to the delta variant. Until globally we get a handle of it, that will keep happening.

The biggest thing western governments can do is help poorer nations vaccinate.

I agree with pretty much every word @Sunshinegirl82 has said on this thread

@BoredZelda

People do seem determined to believe that the spread of the virus is 100% controllable by humans, so the government could simply stop it if it wanted.

Others seem to want to pretend it is entirely uncontrollable by humans and the government can do nothing about it.

The truth is somewhere in between. Some countries have done better than others. Those countries which were previously doing quite well are having to re-introduce mitigation measure are having to do so because other countries did poorly and that led to the delta variant. Until globally we get a handle of it, that will keep happening.

The biggest thing western governments can do is help poorer nations vaccinate.

It is controllable by people, but it's not controllable with the current level of restrictions. If we want to reduce cases we need to increase restrictions. Persisting with the current middle ground (which doesn't control case growth but impacts on the economy) seems completely pointless.

Yes we could reintroduce masks in schools but they break up in a week so I'm not sure that will have a huge impact.

We kept masks in schools in Scotland and had an even bigger peak than the January one. They probably help a bit but massively… I doubt it.

The biggest thing western governments can do is help poorer nations vaccinate.

Agree. When you look at what delta is doing here in a population with high vaccination and previous infection rates, it is absolutely horrifying to think what it’s going to do in countries without that and without the wealth and health infrastructure we’ve got.

It is controllable by people, but it's not controllable with the current level of restrictions. If we want to reduce cases we need to increase restrictions.

No, that’s not what I meant. I agree there are things we can do to make cases start reducing - but only at massive, massive cost, financial and otherwise, and not to the point of making it go away. At some point we have to lift those restrictions, and it’ll still be here.

Eg: We could probably get R down to say 0.8, even with delta, if we reintroduced a lot of restrictions now. But right now we must have upwards of 60,000 cases a day. So assuming 5 days for a new generation of infections, that would take over three months of restrictions to get it down to under 1000 cases a day - and then we lift restrictions in autumn, and…

If not now, when? We have been doing this for a year and know that no restrictions equals cases, and lockdowns equals reduced cases but economic hardship issues. The government doesnt have the pleasure to look at these two issues in a mutually exclusive way, they have to weigh up all the pros and cons.

Whitty stated better to open now in summer and see what happens than make the mistake we did in 2020 by pushing the peak into winter. We may have restrictions again in future, I bloody hope not though.

As for the assertion of an "I'm alright jack" attitude. Yes, I also alright. Both mine and DHs jobs have been solid in the pandemic. Sadly I cant say the same for my clients whose domestic abuse issues went through the roof, for the children for whomever school was their safe place and got locked at home with their abusers. I also cant say the same for my sister who lost her job to covid and now barely manages to keep a roof over her and her childrens head and food on the table.

Food bank usage is disgusting in this country, it's gotten worse in covid times.

If all you are concerned about is an exaggerated fear of catching covid, which for most is a week or 2 feeling crook then your life is very comfortable indeed. I do feel sorry for the CEV etc, but it's not my job to keep you safe. I didnt worry about it pre covid and I cant worry about it now. People need to be out, working properly, to survive.

As it is, our childrens, childrens, children will be paying off the furlough debt.

@GoldenOmber

It is controllable by people, but it's not controllable with the current level of restrictions. If we want to reduce cases we need to increase restrictions.

No, that’s not what I meant. I agree there are things we can do to make cases start reducing - but only at massive, massive cost, financial and otherwise, and not to the point of making it go away. At some point we have to lift those restrictions, and it’ll still be here.

Eg: We could probably get R down to say 0.8, even with delta, if we reintroduced a lot of restrictions now. But right now we must have upwards of 60,000 cases a day. So assuming 5 days for a new generation of infections, that would take over three months of restrictions to get it down to under 1000 cases a day - and then we lift restrictions in autumn, and…

I'm not saying we should introduce more restrictions, just that continuing to have the current restrictions (together with their associated costs) whilst case numbers continue to grow, seems pointless.

I can understand the objective of increasing restrictions, I can understand the objective or releasing restrictions but I can't understand the objective of prolonging the current t position.

continuing to have the current restrictions (together with their associated costs) whilst case numbers continue to grow, seems pointless.

Yeah, fair enough.

I think that the virus is going to run its course now no matter what. Yes we can slow it down with lockdowns and vaccines, but we can't eliminate it and we can't prevent new variants arising. There's no way we can vaccinate the entire world fast enough to stop it in its tracks.