Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

@minipie

The thing is that it’s not a choice that only affects the individual.

You don’t want to take the risk of having a new vaccine. I didn’t particularly want to take that risk either. Lots of people feel the same. But most of us have gone ahead and taken that risk anyway, because it’s the only way we were going to get back to normal life as a country.

Is it fair that you get to opt out of taking that risk, but meanwhile you benefit from the gradual opening up that has happened solely because of the vaccine and all the people who have taken the risk and had it?

Tbh if there are a few things you are restricted from, like travel, that seems a fair pay off for the fact you’ve chosen not to take a risk that others have swallowed.

Unless you are going to drip feed and explain the vaccine is especially risky for you?

Completely agree with this. Unless you want permanent lockdown for the rest of our lives vaccination currently seems the only way out. We're all taking a risk on others behalf, in the same way we've made lots of other sacrifices for others. That said I would never personally have a go at someone for failing to have it. In my own mind I do think it's selfish though.

It is not experimental as others have explained.

I think the reason vaccine refusers annoy me is that you're basically saying you want millions of other people to go ahead and take the vaccine to see if there are long term effects before you can decide it's good enough for you. Other people taking the vaccine will protect you but in the meantime you will continue posing a greater risk to others.

The "your body your choice" argument doesn't really work here when we're talking about a virus we catch from other people.

I’m usually all for individual choice when it comes to these things but I am so fucking sick of things like contacts of cases having to isolate, schools and childcare having to close or send the children home with the ensuing negative impact that has on their and their parents’/carers’ lives that I’m fast losing sympathy. We were all expected to give up a huge amount, in many cases not for our own benefit but for the benefit of others - to the detriment of health, work, businesses, lives - and anyone who challenged that orthodoxy was roundly condemned. We all had to do that or face prosecution and social shaming. So I’m not particularly bothered if people who won’t get the vaccination face a bit of pressure or aren’t allowed to go to Tenerife. It almost annoys me that I feel that way because it goes against what I usually believe, but there seems to be no end in sight without everyone vaccinated and that means you’re standing between me and the prospect of getting my life back.

@Delatron

Most problems with vaccines happen initially not years down the line.

If you choose not to have it then that’s your choice. But you need to accept there will maybe restrictions on what you can and can’t do.

One of my friends (and many on here) have been part of the vaccine trials. What amazing people these are eh? People that think about the bigger picture.

If everyone refused the vaccine where do you think we would be? Or would you be happy to be either in eternal lockdown or the virus running rife?
Because if everyone refused that’s the alternative.

Another very constructive comment.OP. Could you respond to some of the thoughtful constructive comments? What do you think about society as a whole?

Would you have preferred it if no-one had made a vaccine? No-one had volunteered to trial it? We were left in permanent lockdown?

@ToTheLetter01

Do you think "non-vulnerable" people need to be vaccinated against COVID? If not, why?

I think this is the crux of the argument to be honest

I am a strong believer in freedom of choice. If you have an illness, you are entitled to refuse any treatment.

However in the case of the COVID vaccine, I believe we all have a responsibility to wider society and in this case, that trumps our individual freedoms. We all have to do our bit to stop this virus.

I agree with you to a certain extent - that no one should be forced into having the vaccine. I find the carers issues particularly troubling because I can see both sides - if my elderly parent was in a care home and had a depressed immune system, I know I would want their carer to be vaccinated. But at the same time carers are some of the worst paid and worst treated people in the workforce, so mandatory vaccination feels much closer to coercion than it would for some other professions. So I struggle with it.

I think you're flat out wrong on international travel, though. This is one where you are being presented with a choice of how to make international travel acceptably safe to those the traveller comes into contact with, and to wider society - vaccine or quarantine.

It's up to each individual to decide whether the vaccine, with their own personal assessment of the risk involved, is more or less attractive than quarantine. But this one is about how to minimise the risk the traveller poses to everyone else in the short to medium term, and looking at the categories in which that risk is more or less equivalent. I'd like for there also be an 'antibodies' category where a person can prove immunity without vaccination, particularly given the recent data on reinfection, but I know we're a way off from that and the choice between vaccine and quarantine seems pretty fair given what we know about the risks of introducing new variants and seeding disease into areas of the country.

I just wish that everyone who has chosen not to have it for whatever reason could have the opportunity to discuss their decision with an appropriate health expert who might be able to allay their fears, before the make a final decision. I know some people will have read up extensively on it but not everyone will have done.

A family member who is an HCP and who visits people's houses as part of their job has chosen not to have the Covid vaccine due to a reaction they had to a previous unrelated vaccine which they had. As far as I can see only one of the vaccines is made using the same method as the one they had a reaction to - so other entirely unrelated vaccine types are available. What disappoints me is that their employer has not questioned the fact they haven't had the jab so that they could have a proper informed discussion. The person has also not spoken to their GP. Said person is in the higher risk categories for 2 reasons. I don't have anything against free choice but do think it should be a well informed choice.

Absolutely your choice and I would completely defend your right not to have it, despite being very pro Vaccine myself and having had both doses.

I do think personally, in weighing up the risks and benefits that the long term effects from Covid itself are also unknown. It already seems that these are be significant, with long Covid showing signs of being a possible chronic condition for some people.

However I don't see the outcome of your decision as unfair. Part of weighing up the pros and cons is that not having the Vaccine comes with consequences for you, such as needing to quarantine if you wish to travel over seas. This seems actually as fair as can be the case to me. People will still die from Covid who have been vaccinated, and there are people who are unable to get the Vaccine, who are also High risk. Decisions come with consequences and its not reasonable that you have it both ways.

"is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023"

This is bollocks? You must know that, right?

Why on earth do you think it's still in the experimental stages?

It's fair enough you not wanting it - you have bodily autonomy after all. But when the reason you give is incorrect it does make your decision isn't based on fact, just fear.

I’ve personally no idea who has had the vaccine or not except the numpties on my FB declaring that they refuse.
If they’re worried about being second class citizens just STFU!

@Nodal

"is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023"

This is bollocks? You must know that, right?

This is NOT an experimental vaccine. It is a vaccine that has been able to avoid a lot of the longer bureaucratic delays in the approval process because it is so vital. No critical stages have been missed. It has been fully tested, peer reviewed and approved.

I agree with you. Your body, your choice. I am open in the fact I have not had the vaccine. Some of my friends have had it. Some not. Some may be judging..but I simply don't care. I will never be co-erced into something I am not comfortable with. I also do not worry about the possibility for not being able to travel etc. If that occurs it will be short lived. Tourist places are desperate for tourists. There will be alternative methods of travelling-testing for example-if you can be bothered.

I agree it is causing divisions and real vitriol. It is a very sad (and dangerous) time.

@HelloMissus

I’ve personally no idea who has had the vaccine or not except the numpties on my FB declaring that they refuse. If they’re worried about being second class citizens just STFU!

I don’t know anyone who does this even, but I agree.

@Dustyboots

I feel just the same OP.

Exactly, pretty much, to the word of what you have written.

I should have lied but didn't. Now I no longer care. Our freedom has been reduced, it's true. But no one can take away the freedom you have in you mind. Hold on to that. That is precious.

The freedom you have in your mind is the freedom to die from a preventable disease because you think you know more about the vaccine than the medical community.

Have fun exercising that freedom, and please don't get angry if people thin you're thick or selfish or partly to blame for this dragging out longer than it needs to.

@loulouljh

I agree with you. Your body, your choice. I am open in the fact I have not had the vaccine. Some of my friends have had it. Some not. Some may be judging..but I simply don't care. I will never be co-erced into something I am not comfortable with. I also do not worry about the possibility for not being able to travel etc. If that occurs it will be short lived. Tourist places are desperate for tourists. There will be alternative methods of travelling-testing for example-if you can be bothered.

I agree it is causing divisions and real vitriol. It is a very sad (and dangerous) time.

The danger is covid and the risk can be reduced by use of vaccines!

This whole thread should be reported. It is anti-vax bullshit and OP knows it.

This vaccine has been properly tested as much as any other vaccine ever has. OP is peddling lies.

OP - the reason we look down on people who refuse the vaccine is because by your words and actions you come across as deserving of it.

@Delatron

Most problems with vaccines happen initially not years down the line.

If you choose not to have it then that’s your choice. But you need to accept there will maybe restrictions on what you can and can’t do.

One of my friends (and many on here) have been part of the vaccine trials. What amazing people these are eh? People that think about the bigger picture.

If everyone refused the vaccine where do you think we would be? Or would you be happy to be either in eternal lockdown or the virus running rife?
Because if everyone refused that’s the alternative.

Agree with this too

It's fine. I won't. Won't worry @JediGnot because I'm freeeeeeeeee!!!!

I support people’s choices but also restrictions on them if it impacts on the rest of us.
I had the vaccine because it is the right thing to do for society as a whole and get us out of this situation. I was nervous about it and did not enjoy the side effects. But I did it nevertheless as not doing it = selfish and cowardly in my mind. However, I don’t want to live in a society where people are forced into a vaccine they don’t want. That is the worse of two evils. However, it is only fair if those who decline it near the consequences of their personal choice.

I think all posts that refer to the vaccines as ‘experimental’ should be deleted.

By all means discuss the ethics of mandatory vaccination for certain jobs and the wider issues around individuals opting out, but damaging and mendacious bollocks about ‘experiments’ need to be quashed.

But the danger is not covid. That's the issue! The danger is people following like sheep, not having any independent thought, being intolerant of other people's views, being unable to debate without resorting to personal insults. The danger is also the fact we have now have incompetent dictatorship ruling this country with zero opposition. The danger is the fact we have screwed a whole generation of children. The danger is the huge backlogs with the NHS, the cancers going undetected. Those to me are the dangers. Not covid. That is small fry.

@minipie

The thing is that it’s not a choice that only affects the individual.

You don’t want to take the risk of having a new vaccine. I didn’t particularly want to take that risk either. Lots of people feel the same. But most of us have gone ahead and taken that risk anyway, because it’s the only way we were going to get back to normal life as a country.

Is it fair that you get to opt out of taking that risk, but meanwhile you benefit from the gradual opening up that has happened solely because of the vaccine and all the people who have taken the risk and had it?

Tbh if there are a few things you are restricted from, like travel, that seems a fair pay off for the fact you’ve chosen not to take a risk that others have swallowed.

Unless you are going to drip feed and explain the vaccine is especially risky for you?

Exactly this. You make the choice not to have it, you accept you may face some restrictions that those who have been vaccinated don’t.

And to the person above who says this is anti-vax nonsense, that is precisely what I am talking about. It is NOT anti-vax. It is someone expressing their views and concerns about the vaccine and the wider impact. I am so sick of people not being allowed to express their views. Which are just as valid as anyone elses.