Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

There is a news report out today that trials are ongoing to allow vaccinated people to not have to isolate if a close contact. Instead you will be asked to do daily LFT tests. I took part in this trial and hope that it leads to some changes. There are bound to be advantages to being vaccinated in the long term but the scientists need to test and understand the implications before they can recommend changes.

The advantages to being vaccinated really do outweigh the risks both in practical and medical terms.

However everyone is entitled to their own choices as long as you accept the consequences of those choices.

@MarshaBradyo I guess that’s because you’re all in the ‘us’ group. It’s probably easier to ‘other’ people you don’t know IRL too.

[quote bumbleymummy]@MarshaBradyo I guess that’s because you’re all in the ‘us’ group. It’s probably easier to ‘other’ people you don’t know IRL too.[/quote]
Tbh I don’t think about it other than when I see threads on here. As I said I have much sympathy with phobias - I get that I have a couple and can understand why the reaction is at it is. So no I don’t think I do just say you’re ‘other’. I have huge understanding. I wouldn’t force my dc to do some they are phobic about and I’d do pretty much anything over some treatment they showed (made me recoil due to claustrophobia).

It’s probably age too. I’m 46 and all the people I know my age are getting it. Maybe you’re younger and know younger people idk.

@sunnnysideup

Those that are saying if you choose not to get the vaccine then it’s your choice as you have to quarantine and can’t travel?! Are you living under a rock? How was your holiday abroad this year? 🤣 You still can’t travel you still have to self isolate if you come into contact with someone who’s tested positive, you still have to wear a mask, you still have to social distance and you’ll still have to lockdown again in autumn. You’ve had the vaccine and you don’t have any special privileges for it. You was lied to. Get it?

No. Its always be the case that politicians said 'they hoped to' not that 'they would'.

The media on the other hand said things like 'Spanish Islands and Malta to be added to the green list' and lots of whinging about Portugal being taken off the green list when anyone with half a brain should have been aware that the green list wasn't necessarily permenant was clearly dependent on data.

The issue is that people latched on to things they wanted to hear rather than what was actually said by anyone with the authority and official capacity to do so.

No one was lied to. Its just people like to hype things up and use phrases like 'you was lied to' because they haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

Personally I haven't booked anything abroad this year, and none of my friends have either (they have just rebooked cancelled holidays from last year, mainly because that was the best option they were given). None of my close friends have actively expected going on holiday abroad was a given - thats why they all booked something in the UK in Jan/Feb because they were following what was happening and could work out the likelihood of being able to travel in both directions (with kids) without quaratining as unlikely.

But yeah shouting about holidays and being lied to as if its the single most important reason and priority to get vaccinated doesn't really cut much ice with me.

It just shows people up saying it.

Like MarshaBradyo we have all been open about our vaccination status with friends and family. We are all over 40, and everyone I know (my family, friends and workmates) have been vaccinated except for SIL's family. Most of our friends are retired so they do fall into the more vulnerable group, so having the vaccine was a no brainer.

SIL had the first vaccine, but was so poorly after the first dose she didn't go for the second one. Her children have decided not to bother. DH just said to them "I don't agree that you are doing the right thing, but it is up to you"

@RedToothBrush I'm not saying they told us specifically what we can do once vaccinated. But they did say that the vaccine was the only way we could get back to normal.

Excuse me for thinking that one day we will get back to normal.

I also had massive reservations about the vaccine, mainly due to the negative hysteria about it, but I was able to rationalise that jabs like these have been about for a long time, just like the flu jab, and most people get that with little preamble. The covid jab is just an updated and adapted version of that and the only reason it’s a new vaccine is because covid is a new virus!

Also I wasn’t going to turn it down for my disabled adult child as that would be negating my duty of care to him, and if he was going to have it and take whatever risk it may have caused, so would I. My other young adult DC have just had it too with no side effects whatsoever.

I think it’s important that all adults (excepting those who are medically contraindicated) have it so that there’s a potential that children don’t have to. Their immune systems are not as developed as ours. Imagine it mutating through all the non-vaxxed adults and it being passed to children and it becoming more deadly to them like the last wave of Spanish flu. That’s my greatest worry about the non-vaxxed and that’s why I think people like the OP are a bit dim and very selfish.

[quote anewpost]@RedToothBrush I'm not saying they told us specifically what we can do once vaccinated. But they did say that the vaccine was the only way we could get back to normal.

Excuse me for thinking that one day we will get back to normal. [/quote]
We will do in time.

The biggest issue here is a notable percentage of public just haven't grasped that from the outset that 12 to 18months for this to start normalisation was realistic.

People didn't want to believe it. So they didn't.

Anyone who understood the timescale of developing the vaccine, manufacture the vaccine and roll it out to the public realised what was feasible in reality and what was in the realms of fantasy.

We are at the point we should be on the timescale. We aren't wildly off best expectations at all really.

I'm pretty relaxed as a result. There isn't an awful lot else that could be different tbh. Yes the uk has made errors and had poor pre-pandemic planning in place but i think there are few countries with the same challenges (largely due to geography, population demographics and inequality) as the uk.

The covid jab is just an updated and adapted version of that and the only reason it’s a new vaccine is because covid is a new virus!

Slightly gobsmacked you think that? The mRNA vaccines are newly approved for public use - it's a first and they've not been around for a 'long time'. The contents of flu and covid jabs are quite different, too, due to the technology and whether or not they have adjuvants. You may react to one and not the other.

From the CDC

mRNA Vaccines are new but not unknown.

Researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades. Interest has grown in these vaccines because they can be developed in a laboratory using readily available materials. This means the process can be standardized and scaled up, making vaccine development faster than traditional methods of making vaccines.

mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). As soon as the necessary information about the virus that causes COVID-19 was available, scientists began designing the mRNA instructions for cells to build the unique spike protein into an mRNA vaccine.

Future mRNA vaccine technology may allow for one vaccine to provide protection for multiple diseases, thus decreasing the number of shots needed for protection against common vaccine-preventable diseases.

@RedToothBrush ok so when do you expect things to be normal again ?

@Parker231

From the CDC

mRNA Vaccines are new but not unknown.

Researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades. Interest has grown in these vaccines because they can be developed in a laboratory using readily available materials. This means the process can be standardized and scaled up, making vaccine development faster than traditional methods of making vaccines.

mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). As soon as the necessary information about the virus that causes COVID-19 was available, scientists began designing the mRNA instructions for cells to build the unique spike protein into an mRNA vaccine.

Future mRNA vaccine technology may allow for one vaccine to provide protection for multiple diseases, thus decreasing the number of shots needed for protection against common vaccine-preventable diseases.

Yes, but it isn’t, as the PP stated, an updated/adapted version of the annual flu vaccine.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/national-news/uk-today/19387244.boris-johnson-shares-update-fourth-winter-lockdown/

[quote anewpost]@RedToothBrush ok so when do you expect things to be normal again ?[/quote]
I don't see how anyone is actually in a position to know at this point.

If you mean pre 2019 there will probably be some societal changes which will stay with us.

Consequences, ah well.

Wow I've just checked back to see hundreds of replies! I don't come on here too often but will look through later!

[quote MercyBooth]www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/national-news/uk-today/19387244.boris-johnson-shares-update-fourth-winter-lockdown/[/quote]
Hmmm… surely now would be a better time to have a surge of cases to see if it has any impact on hospitalisations rather than in the winter when the nhs is always overstretched as it is? A lot of mild cases that provide immunity without increasing hospital pressure could be a good thing.

[quote anewpost]@RedToothBrush ok so when do you expect things to be normal again ?[/quote]
Normal as in the same as pre pandemic?

Never

Normal as in most things relatively back to how they were - 19th July with some major exceptions particularly to travel.

Monitoring and testing will be around for at least another 12 to 18 months i suspect in some form.

Travel will be patchy for a good couple of years depending on where you want to go.

And even after that i expect certain vaccinations for travel to be permanent really and moves to merge with your passport likely.

We have past the crisis stage in the uk and are moving into the medium term management but there's going to be some sort of long term changes that this brings about.

Certainly I can see restrictions for anyone having certain symptoms from particular countries being required to quarantine regardless of vaccine status being something that become a thing in the future.

Difficult to stay. But the rest of this year will be on edge no matter what and that probably means at least advisories for things like masks even if not legally required for periods.

What do you think is going to be permanently different from pre-pandemic.

Hmmm… surely now would be a better time to have a surge of cases to see if it has any impact on hospitalisations rather than in the winter when the nhs is always overstretched as it is? A lot of mild cases that provide immunity without increasing hospital pressure could be a good thing

@bumbleymummy but a surge is never a good thing? Pretty much all governments have now advised gaining immunity through natural infection rather than vaccination isn't a good thing. You can't predict who will get seriously ill, or have long term complications, and every infectious person is potentially another vector who can start new chains of transmission...

The other aspect is increased transmission = increased mutation rate, which is something we're actively trying to avoid

A surge isn’t a problem if it isn’t causing hospitalisations/deaths.

We can actually predict the people most likely to be seriously ill - that’s who the JCVI prioritised for vaccination.

@bumbleymummy

A surge isn’t a problem if it isn’t causing hospitalisations/deaths.

We can actually predict the people most likely to be seriously ill - that’s who the JCVI prioritised for vaccination.

@bumbleymummy

as I stated, you can't predict the people most likely to be seriously ill or have long term effects. For seriously ill, yes if you're older/CEV statistically you're more likely to be hospitalised, but this still happens younger people and we haven't identified why. For long term effects and and long COVID, we have very little idea.

And the rest of my post- each new infection potentially starts a new chain of infection, increased transmission = increased mutations.

Immunity is temporary, which is one of the reasons why all governments have advised achieving herd immunity (or as close to is as we can get) via natural infection is not a good strategy.

@bumbleymummy

What do you think is going to be permanently different from pre-pandemic.

I thought that had been defined in the post above.

@riveted1

But we can’t predict which young people will be seriously impacted by any virus. Some will become seriously ill with flu, norovirus, meningitis, chickenpox, every year. And yes, many can suffer long term effects from these. As long as there aren’t high enough numbers to cripple the nhs, it isn’t actually a problem (harsh as that may seem) .

Worrying about infections causing mutations in the few unvaccinated (relatively speaking) in this country compared to the rest of the works seems a bit silly tbh.

We know more about immunity after natural infection than after vaccination atm and most studies show that it lasts 8+ months in the majority.

[quote bumbleymummy]@riveted1

But we can’t predict which young people will be seriously impacted by any virus. Some will become seriously ill with flu, norovirus, meningitis, chickenpox, every year. And yes, many can suffer long term effects from these. As long as there aren’t high enough numbers to cripple the nhs, it isn’t actually a problem (harsh as that may seem) .

Worrying about infections causing mutations in the few unvaccinated (relatively speaking) in this country compared to the rest of the works seems a bit silly tbh.

We know more about immunity after natural infection than after vaccination atm and most studies show that it lasts 8+ months in the majority.[/quote]
No you can't, but none of the illness you mentioned are currently epidemic in the UK and risk of repeated outbreaks. Your argument for removing all restrictions and not vaccinating younger people is that they are not impacted by COVID, I'm pointing out that it's not true

We know more about immunity after natural infection than after vaccination atm and most studies show that it lasts 8+ months in the majority.

you misunderstand me, I'm not speculating on whether vaccination induced or natural infection leads to "better" immunity, I'm saying that the fact that immunity is relatively short-lived, is one of the key arguments against pursuing herd immunity through natural infection.