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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
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13
Malteser71 · 09/06/2021 12:52

I’m not sure the NHS was ever overwhelmed?

DH ITU consultant.

First wave, about 56 patients with total bed capacity around 63.

Second wave -maximum 25 patients (same capacity).

Currently - one patient in ITU.

Perhaps we need a conversation about what ‘overwhelmed’ means. Because I work in mental health services, and that’s definitely overwhelmed, as in, not enough beds/appointments/staff. People going untreated.

Not something that ever applied to covid patients.

Toty · 09/06/2021 12:58

The NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson, told Times Radio: “What [hospital] chief executives are consistently telling us is that it is a much younger population that is coming in

Try to keep up.

Can't find any data on English admissions however there are currently 10 children in hospital with covid in the whole of Scotland. There are a total of 120 people in hospital with covid in the entire country, less that 20 in intensive care. Out of a population of 6 million. Hardly pandemic figures.

Delatron · 09/06/2021 13:01

Great, thanks for some actual figures and data @Toty

Delatron · 09/06/2021 13:04

Just listening to the news that 80% of adults in the U.K now have antibodies to Covid. Source: ONS.

This is great news. Though I’m sure the doom mongers will find some way to twist it to being bad...

You can’t possibly argue that won’t have an impact on spread and admissions to hospitals.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 09/06/2021 13:10

@Malteser71

I’m not sure the NHS was ever overwhelmed?

DH ITU consultant.

First wave, about 56 patients with total bed capacity around 63.

Second wave -maximum 25 patients (same capacity).

Currently - one patient in ITU.

Perhaps we need a conversation about what ‘overwhelmed’ means. Because I work in mental health services, and that’s definitely overwhelmed, as in, not enough beds/appointments/staff. People going untreated.

Not something that ever applied to covid patients.

If we’re going with anecdata, a friend was unable to be admitted to his local hospital with Covid because they had no space.
PracticingPerson · 09/06/2021 13:53

Hardly pandemic figures Everyone accepts we are at the beginning of whatever this wave becomes, not the peak.

Piggywaspushed · 09/06/2021 13:59

Perhaps we need a conversation about what ‘overwhelmed’ means. Because I work in mental health services, and that’s definitely overwhelmed, as in, not enough beds/appointments/staff. People going untreated.

Firstly, the government has woefully underfunded MH for may years.

Secondly, this is exacerbated BECAUSE of covid. So this is what we mean by overwhelmed. The danger of other services being impacted. You should know that.

Not something that ever applied to covid patients.

That's not a nice sentence.Hopefully unintentionally.

Sunnyfreezesushi · 09/06/2021 13:59

I think “the Covid” is rampant now in schools in my area of outer South East London. I think it comes in 6 monthly waves regardless and goes through the school kids, many with minimum symptoms/asymptomatic.

Quite a few schools are sending out letters now saying they are now also a PCR school not just lateral flow and to test all kids self isolating on day 5 with a pcr. The implication is if positive, isolation is extended. If negative, still isolate for 10 days. I am not sure where we are in this wave. I think so many people have switched off and just are not testing or have prior immunity so don’t even realise they have the virus.

ICanSmellSummerComing · 09/06/2021 14:55

Sunny many are not testing they are not informing the schools when they have been told to isolate, the reigns and control have totally gone.

Personally I would do a switch to on line learning again for secondary students and older as a circuit break before summer hols. Or do one day in etc and rest at home.

Toty · 09/06/2021 15:01

Hardly pandemic figures Everyone accepts we are at the beginning of whatever this wave becomes, not the peak.

Well there were no deaths at all last summer in Scotland and that was before vaccines so I really can't see how this year would be worse up here. It's almost like it behaves like every other virus and peaks in the winter months!
Oh and our schools close in 2 weeks for school hols anyway.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 09/06/2021 15:08

@PracticingPerson

Hardly pandemic figures Everyone accepts we are at the beginning of whatever this wave becomes, not the peak.
I think this thread demonstrates that lots of people aren't really aware that there's a big difference between figures early in a wave, and at the peak, or the extent that hospitalisations and deaths lag cases.

Indoor restaurants reopened and people started being allowed to mix 17th May?

Cases are now rising as expected.

Hospitalisations usually rise about 10 days after that.

Deaths 2 weeks after that.

At this point the UK scientists are watching carefully to see that the vaccine means that hospitalisation rates do not rise, but don't yet know.

Hopefully they won't.

Looking in from the US it's interesting, but I'm not sure how much we will learn from the UK experience, as we are choosing to vaccinate our 12-18 year olds, have already vaccinated the 19+ group, and most people who have been vaccinated have had both doses, so generally speaking our population is less vulnerable.

BlackeyedSusan · 09/06/2021 15:52

I think the point from a poster above that we need to compare the effect on young people who are catching covid now, with the effect on their peers in waves one and two is important.

Any increase in covid in young pople is a bad thing: the more that get covid, the more who will miss out on education, will have to self isolate, will feel ill, will get long term effects. Mitigating those effects is not a bad thing.

Delatron · 09/06/2021 16:17

Deaths down by 50% this week.
Since we were working in percentages earlier with cases.
12 last week, 6 this week.

The Delta variant has been around for a while now. This is more evidence the vaccines are working as they should.

DancesWithTortoises · 09/06/2021 16:30

Thank you, noble, for keeping us informed with facts rather than the vague imaginings or total fiction of some on this thread.

Delatron · 09/06/2021 16:32

Right so ONS data isn’t ‘facts’. Right oh 🤣

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 09/06/2021 16:35

@Delatron

Deaths down by 50% this week. Since we were working in percentages earlier with cases. 12 last week, 6 this week.

The Delta variant has been around for a while now. This is more evidence the vaccines are working as they should.

That is good news, but it is too soon since the UK reopened to know what will happen to the death rate as a result of the combination of Delta variant and coming out of lockdown.

Hopefully it will be low, but it's too early to say with any certainty.

Regulus · 09/06/2021 16:37

@BlackeyedSusan

I think the point from a poster above that we need to compare the effect on young people who are catching covid now, with the effect on their peers in waves one and two is important.

Any increase in covid in young pople is a bad thing: the more that get covid, the more who will miss out on education, will have to self isolate, will feel ill, will get long term effects. Mitigating those effects is not a bad thing.

And , what is missed so often, the comparison with children who have multiple isolations, and multiple teacher isolation and children who have none.
Delatron · 09/06/2021 16:38

Yes agree. It’s too early to say otherwise either. That deaths will definitely increase.

Lots of good news today.

Piggywaspushed · 09/06/2021 16:43

7540 cases today is good news?

Whatshouldicallme · 09/06/2021 16:44

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

The school mitigation measures definitely look better in the US, but I think the higher rate of vaccine hesitancy might be a problem eventually. The reason the US is able to offer vaccines to anyone who wants one is because there is a significant proportion who are not taking it up. The UK has had to work down the groups more slowly because most people eligible are taking it up.

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 09/06/2021 16:49

Again, this isn’t (and hopefully won’t be) about deaths. As BlackeyedSusan pointed out perfectly above, infections spreading in schools cause so much disruption - thanks to Government/DfE/PHE guidelines by the way, not schools’ individual choice. For those of us who have seen the effects first hand on multiple children at the same time, not just our own children, we can understand the stress that these disruptions can cause, and are of course incredibly motivated to make sure that doesn’t happen again.

Anyone who says they “don’t care” if children aren’t protected from illness, disruption and the stress that repeated infections and isolations can cause doesn’t appear to have children’s best interests at heart.

Malteser71 · 09/06/2021 16:52

Stats I gave on ITU figures were not ‘anecdata.’

Living with DH as ITU consultant, they are definitely the figures from his large teaching hospital. Really thought they would run out of beds in the first wave. They actually ended up taking patients from city 90 miles away.

Notonthestairs · 09/06/2021 16:52

So the large city hospital ran out beds?

Piggywaspushed · 09/06/2021 16:56

Funny how teachers' reports of cases, outbreaks, and even deaths, and shouted down as anecdotal, and even lies.

Wakemeuuuup · 09/06/2021 16:57

Thanks @noblegiraffe for starting this thread. My kids school has done really well/been very lucky so far. I think it helps that the head is terrified of covid.

When the PM announced no masks our head just said nope they're staying. Since then 2 local secondary schools needed to close before half term as cases rose dramatically.

School went back on Tuesday and we already have our 1st case with contacts sent homeConfused

I have a nasty feeling this could be a rocky half term. I feel so sorry for the kids and teachers in masks in the hot weather but what can we do.