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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
cantkeepawayforever · 08/06/2021 21:53

factcheckni.org/articles/is-there-a-greater-chance-of-dying-by-being-hit-by-a-bus-than-by-covid-19/

Random google finds this. Viewed as 'inaccurate', by a factor of 3000x.

CallmeHendricks · 08/06/2021 21:54

I'm sure it was, but would like @Watapalava to at least attempt to back up her assertions, nonetheless.

CallmeHendricks · 08/06/2021 21:54

@cantkeepawayforever

factcheckni.org/articles/is-there-a-greater-chance-of-dying-by-being-hit-by-a-bus-than-by-covid-19/

Random google finds this. Viewed as 'inaccurate', by a factor of 3000x.

Grin
cantkeepawayforever · 08/06/2021 21:55

CallMe

Doesn't seem to be her style. Reinforcement through constant repetition of false information seems to be more her style.

tapdancingmum · 08/06/2021 22:03

@colouringindoors

50 out of my Bucks school today, rising ever couple of days.
Whereabouts in Bucks are you? I sent a copy of the email received from my LA out yesterday asking my parents to heed the advice in it but I am in a village out of the towns and am wondering where it is more prevalent. I understand South Bucks has seen a rise in cases.
itsgettingwierd · 08/06/2021 22:07

@Watapalava

not all groups have had vaccine but those at any real risk have had it

most in hospital now are not seriously ill

Data shows they're in/out within days. Those unvaccinated and at risk - well - no sympathy and no i don't think we should have any restrictions because they couldn't be arsed taking vaccine when offered - those in Bolton were largely eligible - they werent some 25 yer old healthy teacher

Unvaccinated teachers have more chance of being hit by a bus so yes i don't care if kids pass to them as they're so far down the vaccine list they are not at risk. God i'm mid 40s and don't give it second thought

My ds is group 6 with a degenerative neurological condition.

He's only had vaccine dose 1 6 weeks ago.

He's waiting for dose 2 and then 3 weeks before he's fully covered.

He's in education.

Nice to know you blame him for being not fully vaccinated and if he caught it whilst it dips through schools you'd have no sympathy.

LadyCatStark · 08/06/2021 22:12

Oh great, you’re back.

CallmeHendricks · 08/06/2021 22:23

@LadyCatStark, 900 posts into the thread, who are you talking to?

colouringindoors · 08/06/2021 22:24

tapdancingmum
South Bucks, end of Met line...

tapdancingmum · 08/06/2021 22:28

@colouringindoors

That's not too far from me. I'm quite close to a well known rest home for horses.

CallmeHendricks · 08/06/2021 22:33

The UK is apparently seeing the biggest rise in Covid infections in Europe, here

Whilst some of you may not think high infection numbers matter, I don't think there's going to be a chance in hell of any of us being allowed to "get on with our lives" anytime soon, where holidaying in Europe is concerned. They clearly take a different view.

WaverleyPirate · 08/06/2021 22:41

Unvaccinated teachers have more chance of being hit by a bus so yes i don't care if kids pass to them as they're so far down the vaccine list they are not at risk. God i'm mid 40s and don't give it second thought

Not true. People in their teens, 20's and thirties have died & got seriously ill, so if there is a simple preventative measure which can delay spread until vaccine rollout is complete then you would have to be pretty selfish not to consider it.

colouringindoors · 08/06/2021 23:12

tapdancingmum beautiful 😍

Delatron · 09/06/2021 08:22

Just to point out that is percentage increases. And if you are starting from a lower point then the percentage increase will be greater. As a teacher you know that! Our cases per million are still lower than all those countries on the list and our vaccination program is going far better.

We’re opening up, of course cases will rise. Deaths aren’t increasing. Just to provide balance to your argument. I know you don’t want to hear it but it’s good to actually look at the data rather than the headlines....

hazelnutcrackers · 09/06/2021 08:33

Everyone remotely vulnerable has been vaccinated.
The vaccines work. If they don't work, we shouldnt be being encouraged to have them and we certainly shouldn't be allowing children to have them. So vaccines work and everyone who remotely needs them has been offered them.
There is no earthly reason to care one jot about cases, any more than we care about having a cold.

PracticingPerson · 09/06/2021 08:36

@hazelnutcrackers

Everyone remotely vulnerable has been vaccinated. The vaccines work. If they don't work, we shouldnt be being encouraged to have them and we certainly shouldn't be allowing children to have them. So vaccines work and everyone who remotely needs them has been offered them. There is no earthly reason to care one jot about cases, any more than we care about having a cold.
Apart from the fact that hospitalisations could rise to a level that shuts down other healthcare.

If you liken covid to a cold, you are sadly mistaken.

RedToothBrush · 09/06/2021 08:58

I am hearing really conflicting things over the rise in cases using data alone.

Cases are rising expeditially apparently. But at the same time the upper threshold for the number of people who can catch covid / transmit covid is much lower than it was.

We are seeing a percentage of cases in young people and children rising. Well yes, but this is what we should see and actively should be hoping to see. Purely because it means immunity in older ages is there and the vaccine is working.

We have been told that the link between cases and severe covid is broken by vaccination. Even if you are only half vaccinated your risk of severe covid is reduced. Hospital admissions are not skyrocketing. Increasing yes. Skyrocketing no.

Treatments if you get covid are getting better. You are more likely to be diagnosed quicker. If you get a serious case, it will be picked up quickly and there will be earlier intervention. We have identified better treatments. With hospital admissions lower, staff can care better thus improving outcomes from this alone.

The data is both good and bad at this point. How it is presented and how we read it is largely down to mentality.

Vaccination rollout is continuing at pace. I personally think that Burnham's call to open up vaccinations to all adults in parts of the north west ahead of areas with lower rates is appropriate at this stage. I am aware that in my local area one of the local hospital is now taking bookings for anyone over 20 too so its worthwhile getting your ear to the ground if you are in your 20s and not vaccinated yet. There are also numerous walkin clinics for all ages starting to pop up.

Also although it is 2 to 3 weeks to build immunity levels after your first vaccine, this isn't equally stacked amongst age groups. My understanding is that if you are younger, you tend to get this immunity quicker after vaccination than if you are older. Thus even at this stage the next 2 weeks are really important.

Dh has pointed out that another wave now, is testing whether the vaccine is working and that actually having this earlier rather than in the winter is not a bad thing - it will happen everywhere eventually. Its a public confidence issue and a planning / resilience exercise too. The reality is zero covid is impossible. Flexibility and adaptability are essential going forward.

I'm unconcerned about the summer. Im far far more concerned about the autumn / winter.

My gut feeling is that 12 - 17 year olds may start getting vaccinated as early as July before the summer holidays in parts of the country thought most at risk, precisely because of that. If not, then it will be rolled out everywhere the first week in September.

A reminder. Over 76% of adults have had their first dose and 50% their second. Thats huge. By 21st June we are looking at it being over 60% for second doses and over 80% for first.

I do think a 2 week delay to relaxation is more likely than not, but it has to be put into context too.

This isn't September / October 2020.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 09:18

We are seeing a percentage of cases in young people and children rising. Well yes, but this is what we should see and actively should be hoping to see. Purely because it means immunity in older ages is there and the vaccine is working.

However we shouldn't be using kids to prove that vaccines are working, particularly when 'cases in young people and children rising' means incredible disruption to their education that has already suffered, and which the government has demonstrated that it doesn't give a shiny shit about funding a recovery for. Someone who looks at that data and goes 'good news!' isn't thinking about the kids and communities involved, particularly when a child with covid means a household in isolation and a potential loss of income even if they get a mild case and don't spread it to family members.

We shouldn't be going 'great, rising cases in kids means vaccines are working' and then go 'nothing to see here' and make no effort to stop those cases spreading to other areas, or do everything we can to mitigate the impact in the areas affected.

And I was just listening to an expert on the radio this morning who was explaining that hospitalisations were going up, but that it was too early to say whether this would be manageable, so caution was needed until more data comes in.

OP posts:
hazelnutcrackers · 09/06/2021 09:26

But the vaccines work.
So why would loads of people end up in hospital.
This is simply an endemic illness like any other. The mass neurosis on the other hand really needs to be dealt with.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 09/06/2021 09:34

@cantkeepawayforever

Why wouldn't you want children isolating at all?

My understanding (if you can call it that) is that people who believe this think:

  • Few young people die of Covid and CEV young people don't matter
  • Everybody has been vaccinated is 100% protected. If for some unbelievable reason vaccination ISN'T 100% effective, those who weren't well protected don't matter.
  • The current rates of death are unchangeable, and will continue at exactly the same level even if cases skyrocket.
  • Teachers and school staff are acceptable collateral damage for children being in school
  • Serious illness or long term disability doesn't matter, death is the only useful metric
  • Any personal stories of illness or death of school staff are not credible
  • Children being in school is more important than them being taught by familiar, qualified teachers.
  • It doesn't matter if their normal staff are ill for weeks / months, as long as the child is in a classroom nothing else matters.
  • Young people are wholly unaffected by the illness or death of older people or the CEV, even if those are their relatives, but are unable to cope with a week of home learning.

Or something.

Extremely well-summarised @cantkeepawayforever , thank you.
noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 09:35

One dose of vaccine isn't particularly effective. Two doses work, but the majority of the population haven't had two doses. There also seems to be suggestion of an increased risk of hospitalisation with this variant.

OP posts:
saraclara · 09/06/2021 09:46

It's understandable for the ratio of young people to older people being infected to change due to the vaccination programme. But that isn't all that's happening. The raw numbers of young people getting it and being hospitalised has gone up. Which implies that this variant IS hitting younger people more frequently, and making them more ill than previous ones.

It will take time to come up with the clear data, but anecdotally I'm hearing from hotspot hospitals that they are seeing more, and sicker young people than before. This is already being reported as an issue.

PatriciaHolm · 09/06/2021 10:38

@saraclara Interestingly, The NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson said the opposite this morning. Though of course data is still coming in every day.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/09/link-between-covid-cases-and-deaths-has-been-broken-says-senior-nhs-boss

"The NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson, told Times Radio: “What [hospital] chief executives are consistently telling us is that it is a much younger population that is coming in, they are less clinically vulnerable, they are less in need of critical care and therefore they’re seeing what they believe is significantly lower mortality rate which is, you know, borne out by the figures. So it’s not just the numbers of people who are coming in, it’s actually the level of harm and clinical risk.

“It’s important not to just focus on the raw numbers here … you also do need to look at who’s being admitted into hospital and how clinically vulnerable and what level of acuity they’ve got,” he added."

saraclara · 09/06/2021 10:48

Yep. I read that. But he seems to be comparing the people coming into hospital with the people who were coming into hospital during the last waves. Clearly the younger people are doing better than the older people of the past hospital cohorts. But my info is they're getting sicker this time than their peer group in age did with variants A, B and C.

Delatron · 09/06/2021 10:50

I keep hearing rumours of all these young people being hospitalised due to this new variant but I’m not seeing the actual data to back this up?

Are young people picking it up in hospital who are in for something else? They don’t get a serious case. For example?
Unless this can be answered it’s not helpful to claim lots of young people are being hospitalised with this variant.

I’m more inclined to listen to the NHS Providers Chief Executive than random posters on here who have another agenda...