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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
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Thread gallery
13
PracticingPerson · 09/06/2021 10:50

@hazelnutcrackers

But the vaccines work. So why would loads of people end up in hospital. This is simply an endemic illness like any other. The mass neurosis on the other hand really needs to be dealt with.
You may want to consider the wisdom of dismissing as 'mass neurosis' the views of leading scientists and epidemiological experts? I think they probably know more than you. They certainly know more than I do.

They still do not know how many will end up in hospital from this wave as under half of the population is fully vaccinated and one dose does not afford much protection. They do not know for how long they will be in hospital and they do not know how ill they will get.

More info will be presented on the 14th June (I think?) by which time hopefully we will have enough data to make more confident predictions.

It is absolutely not 'neurosis' to consider the scientific situation.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 10:52

There is a certain remoteness to these pronouncements, isn't there?

'There's an increased risk of hospitalisation in young people, but that's fine because they're less likely to be seriously ill or die, so lets call it good news'

Versus 'let's not celebrate increasing risk of hospitalisation for young people, because regardless of whether you die or not, hospitalisation isn't a good thing'.

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TheKeatingFive · 09/06/2021 10:54

I keep hearing rumours of all these young people being hospitalised due to this new variant but I’m not seeing the actual data to back this up?

This has been the pattern with every new variant.

Lots of rumours, lots of ‘my SIL who works in ICU says’ anecdotes, but not backed up by data.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 10:54

keep hearing rumours of all these young people being hospitalised due to this new variant but I’m not seeing the actual data to back this up?

Two posts before yours Delatron

The NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson, told Times Radio: “What [hospital] chief executives are consistently telling us is that it is a much younger population that is coming in

Try to keep up.

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saraclara · 09/06/2021 10:57

I’m more inclined to listen to the NHS Providers Chief Executive than random posters on here who have another agenda...

And you'd be right to do so. But if you're taking about me, I'm comparing young people today with young people in the last waves.
He's comparing the present hospitalised patients of all ages, with the hospitalised patients of the last waves.

Apples and oranges. And I've clearly said that the data isn't out on my comparison yet, and my info is anecdotal.

I don't have an agenda other than being concerned for younger people and trying to work out the best way to keep them safe.

PracticingPerson · 09/06/2021 10:58

@noblegiraffe

There is a certain remoteness to these pronouncements, isn't there?

'There's an increased risk of hospitalisation in young people, but that's fine because they're less likely to be seriously ill or die, so lets call it good news'

Versus 'let's not celebrate increasing risk of hospitalisation for young people, because regardless of whether you die or not, hospitalisation isn't a good thing'.

And hsopitalisation of young people is so impactful economically as they may not work for a considerable time and require a lot of post hospital treatment.

It is not 'three days in hospital and off you pop back to work'.

The long covid costs will be very high if a lot of young people get ill enough to need hospital treatment.

Delatron · 09/06/2021 10:59

Ok so no the data isn’t out yet. So why are posters claiming it is?

Delatron · 09/06/2021 11:03

Maybe I’m not keeping up. If there are statistics showing lots of young people ill in hospital currently then I wasn’t aware of this. I’d like to see that data and yes that would be terrible.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 11:09

Delatron: I’m more inclined to listen to the NHS Providers Chief Executive than random posters on here who have another agenda...

Response: The NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson, told Times Radio: “What [hospital] chief executives are consistently telling us is that it is a much younger population that is coming in

Delatron Ok so no the data isn’t out yet.

So you don't trust the NHS Providers chief executive?

Or rather only when it suits?

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PracticingPerson · 09/06/2021 11:14

@Delatron

Maybe I’m not keeping up. If there are statistics showing lots of young people ill in hospital currently then I wasn’t aware of this. I’d like to see that data and yes that would be terrible.
Hi, this was posted on another thread last night I think, yes there is data showing admissions are rising and they are younger people. twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1402351614569164801

The admission of a 40yo is not as 'bad' as the admission of an 80yo because they are less likely to die, but that admission is still a very bad event for the individual, we should be avoiding hospital admissions.

We can't avoid them all given we are dealing with Delta variant at this stage in vaccination process but neither is it acceptable to just let hospitalisations happen without attempting to keep them down - people's health matters, especially working age parents supporting families etc.

Delatron · 09/06/2021 11:18

@noblegiraffe you seem to have missed the whole premise of the article. Where he says the link between cases and deaths are broken?

Piggywaspushed · 09/06/2021 11:19

The NHS man expressed frustration at the way the media presented what he actually said. He was somewhat misquoted. He was largely positive but his full statement does express concern. His misquote is circulating on MN and elsewhere,

Delatron · 09/06/2021 11:20

Actual figures please @noblegiraffe. Oh you don’t have them? Hmm

Piggywaspushed · 09/06/2021 11:25

This is what Hopson actually said, for the record:

“Always a bit nerve wracking doing media interviews as you never how they will get “boiled down” for summary headlines. Wince from me at BBC Radio news headline saying that I think vaccines have broken chain between covid-19 and hospitalisations/death. Full version is Increasing confidence that, for this current pattern of variants, vaccines have broken the chain between covid-19 and the “potentially NHS overwhelming” level of hospitalisations and mortality we saw in previous waves. Deeply conscious that people still dying from covid-19''

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 11:27

So you don't trust the NHS Providers Chief Executive, Delatron?

Interesting turnaround.

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PracticingPerson · 09/06/2021 11:27

[quote Delatron]@noblegiraffe you seem to have missed the whole premise of the article. Where he says the link between cases and deaths are broken?[/quote]
But hospitalisations will still overwhelm the NHs as well as cause serious harm to those working age people who are hospitalised.

Death is not the only outcome.

PracticingPerson · 09/06/2021 11:59

Has anyone posted this already, apologies if I missed it - the 'LFTs instead of isolating close contacts' trial has been expanded to include those with the Delta variant. This seems really insane. The letter confirming this is here: twitter.com/Zubhaque/status/1402521387890323460

Interestingly there are four schools in Bolton who are on the list (list is here www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/87233d1d-3e08-4770-bbc8ef87618aed5c.pdf)

Failpants · 09/06/2021 12:12

Jesus, what could possibly go wrong? Shock

Delatron · 09/06/2021 12:27

@noblegiraffe he says that he has ‘increasing confidence that, for this pattern of variants, vaccines have broken the chain of transmission’. So yes I do trust him and he sounds quite positive.

Of course it’s always sad to have people in hospital but he seems to think the NHS won’t be overwhelmed.. I don’t understand why you are reading that differently.

Still waiting for that data...

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 09/06/2021 12:36

His full quote doesn’t match up with what you’re saying Delatron.
Here’s his full quote again, with source (Bolding is mine):

“Increasing confidence that, for this current pattern of variants, vaccines have broken the chain between covid-19 and the “potentially NHS overwhelming” level of hospitalisations and mortality we saw in previous waves. Deeply conscious that people still dying from covid-19.”

mobile.twitter.com/ChrisCEOHopson/status/1401151512387129353

He’s not saying that the vaccines have broken the chain of transmission, he’s saying vaccines have, happily, reduced the infections from “nhs overwhelming” level. (We seem to be reading it differently as were reading the full quote and not just the headline, maybe?)

It’s certainly good news, but of course I would like hospitalisations to stay low, which doesn’t just happen by just panicking and sticking your head in the sand.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 12:36

You don't seem to appreciate, Delatron that his argument that the link between covid and death being broken by vaccines relies on the current increase in hospitalisations being in younger people who are at less risk of dying.

So if you're 'waiting for the data' on the increasing hospitalisations being in younger people, you're going to have to hold off on concluding that increasing hospitalisations isn't worrying in terms of deaths.

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saraclara · 09/06/2021 12:38

[quote Delatron]@noblegiraffe he says that he has ‘increasing confidence that, for this pattern of variants, vaccines have broken the chain of transmission’. So yes I do trust him and he sounds quite positive.

Of course it’s always sad to have people in hospital but he seems to think the NHS won’t be overwhelmed.. I don’t understand why you are reading that differently.

Still waiting for that data...[/quote]
noblegiraffe hasn't said anything about whether or not hospitals will be overwhelmed unless I've missed something. She's simply been talking about transmission within schools, and the number of young people needing hospitalisation. Those numbers don't need to be overwhelming hospitals, to be concerning.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2021 12:41

noblegiraffe hasn't said anything about whether or not hospitals will be overwhelmed unless I've missed something.

No, I don't think so. I have said that increasing numbers of younger people in hospital is a bad thing. I don't think that's controversial!

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ZZTopGuitarSolo · 09/06/2021 12:45

www.washingtonpost.com/health/us-delta-variant/2021/06/08/15c10760-c86b-11eb-81b1-34796c7393af_story.html

Reading in the Washington Post today Fauci saying 1 dose of AZ offers 33% protection against the Delta variant. 2 doses offers 88% protection.

People on here keep saying the vaccine works and everyone who needs to be vaccinated has been.

Have all these people had 2 doses?

saraclara · 09/06/2021 12:49

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

www.washingtonpost.com/health/us-delta-variant/2021/06/08/15c10760-c86b-11eb-81b1-34796c7393af_story.html

Reading in the Washington Post today Fauci saying 1 dose of AZ offers 33% protection against the Delta variant. 2 doses offers 88% protection.

People on here keep saying the vaccine works and everyone who needs to be vaccinated has been.

Have all these people had 2 doses?

Most of the people in hospital are either unvaccinated or have only had one dose, apparently.

I think Fauci might be wrong. Pfizer offers 88% cover after two jabs, but I think AZ only offers 66%. Both only 33% after one jab.