Genuine question for anti-Vaxxers

[kiddo5467]

So I have a question for SOME of the people who are against the vaccine.

It's not really relevant for those who don't want the vaccine as they don't believe it's been tested enough and don't want to be injected with something they don't know enough about. That's not my personal view but I can at least understand the rationale behind it and see why it would out some people off.

However, I've seen more & more people posting online about it being a 'conspiracy' and the government conning us all into getting the vaccine to suit their own agenda. This is what o can't get my head around. Do some people believe the government are trying to inject us with something negative to achieve some other hidden objective? If so, what do they think they're trying to achieve? Is everyone that's had the vaccine going to be wiped out? Unable to re-produce? Be tracked but some strange fluid in our bodies??

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, I'd genuinely like to understand what people who believe the vaccine is part of a conspiracy, believe the conspiracy is?

[quote hollyangel]@Pumperthepumper This is an excellent analysis of the Lab Leak theory in the New Yorker last week, which explains exactly why we should be concerned about the way the media and many politicians and scientists immediately disregarded it as a a right-wing, conspiracy theory only.

www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/the-sudden-rise-of-the-coronavirus-lab-leak-theory

In a nutshell, Covid starting at a wet market in Wuhan with a bat is equally as plausible as the theory that it was leaked from the laboratory in Wuhan that is known to study and hold strains of the bat virus. Neither theory has been confirmed with any hard facts.

However, because the lab leak idea was promoted in March 2020 by Republican politicians such as Senator Tom Cotton and famously by Trump calling it the China Virus, it was immediately discredited, called a conspiracy theory and attributed to the rise in attacks on Asian-Americans in the US.
Meanwhile, the bat theory made much more sense to the masses, after other familiar zoonotic viruses like Avian flu.

The American press were very careful not to give any weight to anything Trump might have been correct about, in advance of the US Presidential election. After Biden was elected, it was immediately clear that the Wuhan lab leak theory was back on the table.[/quote]
I’ve read that before, but thanks for the link.

Let’s not pretend it was Trump calling it ‘the China virus’ - he also called it kung flu. This idea that he was a mad racist but was right about one thing is horseshit, he was known for slinging around baseless accusations.

Lab theory has been floated since the virus started making its way around the world. It wasn’t a over up or a media silence - because if it was, it was a rubbish one, everyone knew about it. It’s a very serious accusation and one you can’t make without credible evidence. Which we don’t have.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

Sorry I forgot to put ‘media’ in that sentence you’ve now referenced about four times hmm

This is only slightly less obtuse a question.

How do feel about the WHO?

Do you mean how do I feel about the WHO? I don't think that they should have put someone with a huge COI in charge of their investigation as to whether SARS-CoV-2 came from a lab or not.

I mean hOw Do YoU fEeL aBoUt ThE wHo - sorry, I forgot context wasn’t your strong point and you can’t handle typos.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

Sorry I forgot to put ‘media’ in that sentence you’ve now referenced about four times hmm

This is only slightly less obtuse a question.

How do feel about the WHO?

Do you mean how do I feel about the WHO? I don't think that they should have put someone with a huge COI in charge of their investigation as to whether SARS-CoV-2 came from a lab or not.

Sorry, forgot.

GOF research makes viruses more transmissible

I think this might be a bit of a misconception (but someone do correct me if I’m wrong!)

Gain of function experiments can make a virus more transmissible, but one of the problems with GOF experiments is that you never exactly know what you’re going to get. You can “tweak” certain parts of the virus that you think will increase transmissibility, but it ends up actually turning the virus bright pink, or doing sod all. Or something.

So GOF research can be very useful for showing “what happens if part x is tweaked”, as might happen in nature, but it’s much harder to force it to do something you want it to do.

Caveat: It was explained to me by a slightly drunk microbiologist.

GOF research makes viruses more transmissible precisely so that they can be studied in labs.

How exactly do they make viruses more transmissible?

Being an anti vaxxer will give them a sense of control and purpose in their otherwise unimportant life. Nothing is required to be actually done, offered or ventured.

@toocold54

GOF research makes viruses more transmissible precisely so that they can be studied in labs.

How exactly do they make viruses more transmissible?

by transfecting it with different genetic sequences, there's lots of difference hypothetical ways this could be achieved. In practise normally you just end up with all your viral particles inviable.

in terms of transmissibility, you could change the genetic sequence that codes for the the proteins on the outside of the envelope, making them better matched at binding with the target cell. Or you could attempt to make the envelope more robust, so it could last longer on surfaces.

It's a pity there isn't a vaccine for stupid. I hate the conspiracy theories. There's never any logic or argument behind them. Just a load of old bollocks.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

This idea that he was a mad racist but was right about one thing is horseshit, he was known for slinging around baseless accusations.

So...that means he can't be right about one thing? You don't think that POTUS might have had credible intel to anything, even though you hate him?

Also, do you think that the 'Chinese wet markets are barbaric, disgsting and repositories for zoonotic diseases' theory is less racist than 'procedures at the Wuhan Lab which was studying bat viruses of the exact nature of SARS-COV-2 slipped'.?

No, it means he threw insults around without giving any thought to any deeper meaning behind any of them.

Are you a Trump* fan?

• just to explain to you, Trump here means Donald Trump, who was POTUS at the time of the remarks

The reason I mention Trump was not to give him credit for this particular theory, but just to highlight why it was so important at that time, with an election that could turn at any moment in his favour, for the American media not to give him an inch of positive coverage.

It's also not that the lab theory was a cover-up, but any mention of the lab leak in 2020 was met with total disdain and actually nearly the implication that it was a racist theory, trying to 'blame' Chinese people for what happened.

This is what happens when important topics become politicised. All theories should have been equally researched. I disagree with you when you say that the lab theory has been talked about since the beginning. It was widely disregarded by all major American bodies, including Fauci. This is why the about-turn is so noticeable in the last few weeks and also why all the press have covered this change of opinion.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

This idea that he was a mad racist but was right about one thing is horseshit, he was known for slinging around baseless accusations.

So...that means he can't be right about one thing? You don't think that POTUS might have had credible intel to anything, even though you hate him?

Also, do you think that the 'Chinese wet markets are barbaric, disgsting and repositories for zoonotic diseases' theory is less racist than 'procedures at the Wuhan Lab which was studying bat viruses of the exact nature of SARS-COV-2 slipped'.?

and just to explain to you FURTHER I don’t think either one is more racist than the other. I don’t think racism comes into play when looking at the origins of the virus, which is why I can’t see a reason the media would cover up a credible lab theory link because the wet markets don’t paint anyone in a good light either

@hollyangel

The reason I mention Trump was not to give him credit for this particular theory, but just to highlight why it was so important at that time, with an election that could turn at any moment in his favour, for the American media not to give him an inch of positive coverage.

It's also not that the lab theory was a cover-up, but any mention of the lab leak in 2020 was met with total disdain and actually nearly the implication that it was a racist theory, trying to 'blame' Chinese people for what happened.

This is what happens when important topics become politicised. All theories should have been equally researched. I disagree with you when you say that the lab theory has been talked about since the beginning. It was widely disregarded by all major American bodies, including Fauci. This is why the about-turn is so noticeable in the last few weeks and also why all the press have covered this change of opinion.

It's also not that the lab theory was a cover-up, but any mention of the lab leak in 2020 was met with total disdain and actually nearly the implication that it was a racist theory, trying to 'blame' Chinese people for what happened.

Why would it be met with distain if there was credible evidence for it?

@Pumperthepumper You might not think that this is a racist issue, but Asian Americans would beg to differ.

Here's an Asian American Professor of Public Health explaining how the lab leak theory has affected her:

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/01/we-need-investigate-lab-leak-theory-without-inflaming-anti-asian-hate/

@SamanthaChumbaMumba raises an excellent point as to why the lab leak was considered the 'racist' viewpoint but the idea of dirty wet markets and the possible eating of bats was a perfectly un-racist theory.
Again, it all points to the same issue. The media have a responsibility to allow all discussion, even the unpalatable theories. Then ideas that have no scientific basis can be dismissed, but only after a conversation has been had about them. We cannot allow the media and/or politicians to decide what the 'right' ideas and thoughts are, without a thorough debate and discussion of all sides.

I feel there would have been a lot less derailing if the question about Fauci’s emails had been answered in one clear post, rather than some convoluted dance of nonsense.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

No, it means he threw insults around without giving any thought to any deeper meaning behind any of them.

No, it doesn't.

Are you a Trump fan?*

not in the slightest. That doesn't mean that I think everything he said was wrong, and as the article that was provided to you explained, thinking that way created a lot of problems.

I get it, you messed up and showed your ignorance - I wasn't kind (I'm bever that forgiving of ignorance on that scale, a besetting sin of mine) and now you're trying to save face, but only looking increasingly dense.

I'm glad I didn't waste the time on you that you were trying to get me to, it would be like trying to teach a dog how to play chess. Everyone gets frustrated, and ultimately, no one truly wins.
I'll be ignoring you from now on, I've let you help me derail from the OP's point enough already.

No, sure, your eye-rolling and sighing and metaphors about stairs and dogs really showed your huge intelligence. It’s just a shame you couldn’t back it up with any evidence.

Nobody was expecting any answers from you, believe me. I said that on the first page of this thread.

[quote hollyangel]@Pumperthepumper You might not think that this is a racist issue, but Asian Americans would beg to differ.

Here's an Asian American Professor of Public Health explaining how the lab leak theory has affected her:

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/01/we-need-investigate-lab-leak-theory-without-inflaming-anti-asian-hate/

@SamanthaChumbaMumba raises an excellent point as to why the lab leak was considered the 'racist' viewpoint but the idea of dirty wet markets and the possible eating of bats was a perfectly un-racist theory.
Again, it all points to the same issue. The media have a responsibility to allow all discussion, even the unpalatable theories. Then ideas that have no scientific basis can be dismissed, but only after a conversation has been had about them. We cannot allow the media and/or politicians to decide what the 'right' ideas and thoughts are, without a thorough debate and discussion of all sides.[/quote]
No, I don’t think it’s ‘not a racist issue’, I think it’s ridiculous to pretend one is more racist than the other, to the extent you believe in a cover up, when the much more likely answer is ‘lack of credible evidence’.

hollyangel
I like this quote a lot - something that’s also regularly “forgotten” on mumsnet.

Words matter, and politicians and members of the news media need to be more careful with theirs. If they are opining about negative actions of the Chinese government or individual scientists, they should say that rather than use blanket terminology to criticize “China” or “the Chinese.” They should also remind the public that questioning the actions of government authorities should not be equated with distrust or hatred of the Chinese people — or of Chinese Americans or others of Asian heritage.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

No, it means he threw insults around without giving any thought to any deeper meaning behind any of them.

No, it doesn't.

Are you a Trump fan?*

not in the slightest. That doesn't mean that I think everything he said was wrong, and as the article that was provided to you explained, thinking that way created a lot of problems.

I get it, you messed up and showed your ignorance - I wasn't kind (I'm bever that forgiving of ignorance on that scale, a besetting sin of mine) and now you're trying to save face, but only looking increasingly dense.

I'm glad I didn't waste the time on you that you were trying to get me to, it would be like trying to teach a dog how to play chess. Everyone gets frustrated, and ultimately, no one truly wins.
I'll be ignoring you from now on, I've let you help me derail from the OP's point enough already.

What’s a bever though?

@Pumperthepumper

But that's the problem, there is currently no evidence it was a lab leak OR that it was found at the wet market. They've hit a dead end. The Chinese government have tried to blockade the WHO investigation into the lab leak from the beginning. It would create a massive political situation if it turns out that the Chinese government have covered-up a leak.

[quote hollyangel]@Pumperthepumper

But that's the problem, there is currently no evidence it was a lab leak OR that it was found at the wet market. They've hit a dead end. The Chinese government have tried to blockade the WHO investigation into the lab leak from the beginning. It would create a massive political situation if it turns out that the Chinese government have covered-up a leak.[/quote]
But it still wouldn’t have made any difference in how we dealt with the virus, and we still don’t have any credible evidence that it was a lab leak. So to say there was a cover up because it wasn’t on the front page of the times every day for the last eighteen months is ridiculous.

@Pumperthepumper

I can't quote your post for some reason, but you said the following:

''I don’t think racism comes into play when looking at the origins of the virus...''

But then you said: ''No, I don’t think it’s ‘not a racist issue’, I think it’s ridiculous to pretend one is more racist than the other, to the extent you believe in a cover up, when the much more likely answer is ‘lack of credible evidence’.'' So you're contradicting yourself. You're also being oddly rude with your tone towards me, not really sure why. So I think we'll agree to disagree.