Genuine question for anti-Vaxxers

[kiddo5467]

So I have a question for SOME of the people who are against the vaccine.

It's not really relevant for those who don't want the vaccine as they don't believe it's been tested enough and don't want to be injected with something they don't know enough about. That's not my personal view but I can at least understand the rationale behind it and see why it would out some people off.

However, I've seen more & more people posting online about it being a 'conspiracy' and the government conning us all into getting the vaccine to suit their own agenda. This is what o can't get my head around. Do some people believe the government are trying to inject us with something negative to achieve some other hidden objective? If so, what do they think they're trying to achieve? Is everyone that's had the vaccine going to be wiped out? Unable to re-produce? Be tracked but some strange fluid in our bodies??

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, I'd genuinely like to understand what people who believe the vaccine is part of a conspiracy, believe the conspiracy is?

Why would anyone cover up the lab theory?

You really need to ask that?

A totalitarian nuclear paranoid state, gets worldwide hate for leaking Covid, causing millions of deaths and global lockdown1
Immense political pressure to act against China and you can't see that this could go horribly wrong?

All of them?

Phone masts, 5g? DH builds the masts and fits the antenna. 25+ years and he is still a fully functioning human being.

@Bluethrough

Why would anyone cover up the lab theory?

You really need to ask that?

A totalitarian nuclear paranoid state, gets worldwide hate for leaking Covid, causing millions of deaths and global lockdown1
Immense political pressure to act against China and you can't see that this could go horribly wrong?

So why would the British media hint it was possible but then silence credible scientists and publish leaked documents?

Did you watch that Channel 4 documentary the other day? I've just seen it on catch up. It's very good actually.

What Samantha says is very true. People are scared. Antivax has been written off or ignored for years as just some irrelevant fringe weirdos but there is actually a huge amount of money behind it and they target anyone who is vulnerable.

What that actually shows us is that there are certain groups who are being failed and feeling neglected by the governments, by the healthcare systems. If we don't want them to be taken in by charlatans then it's important to hear their voices and experiences, in health policy, in government policy as well.

My hairdresser thinks it's a conspiracy led by Bill Gates, who is using the vaccine to track us. He is a man with a successful business who has seemed totally sensible to me until now.

My basic theory is a year of lockdown has made everyone crackers, and this is how it comes out in some people...

... but yes, I do agree w PP that a lot of the problem is that large groups of people feel they outside the system, don't benefit from it and so don't trust either the govt (who can blame them) or systems like healthcare.

A bit like the Brexit vote really.

@Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting

My best friend is extremely intelligent. Overachiever at school. But she won't have the vaccine and believes the government response to the pandemic is part of a grand plan to control us. I've had my jab as I teach full time in a year 1 classroom, aka petri dish with my little dinks breathing all over me, cuddling me etc. Her response has flummoxed me and I don't know what to think.

It's these general statements Like "control us" that I don't get - control us in what way and to make us do what? 🤯

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

No, why would the media cover it up? Why would they do a drip-drip of hints it was possible but then SILENCE SCIENTISTS and LEAK DOCUMENTS?

If you mean media then say media.

Not all media has. Some have pushed it from the beginning, some have fought against it.
Many are now having to eat humble pie having once 'debunked' it.

A lot of it, in my opinion, has to do with groupthink consensus, with a side-order of credentialism, and the nasty intolerance of difference of opinion that has been gathering apace over the last couple of decades.

Both journalism and science comms have failed us all, badly.

So you think it’s true?

Is it not more likely that you can’t just make serious accusations against people (or countries) without credible evidence?

@BertieBotts

Did you watch that Channel 4 documentary the other day? I've just seen it on catch up. It's very good actually.

What Samantha says is very true. People are scared. Antivax has been written off or ignored for years as just some irrelevant fringe weirdos but there is actually a huge amount of money behind it and they target anyone who is vulnerable.

What that actually shows us is that there are certain groups who are being failed and feeling neglected by the governments, by the healthcare systems. If we don't want them to be taken in by charlatans then it's important to hear their voices and experiences, in health policy, in government policy as well.

I think I might watch this tonight, thanks!

As I was shielding and extremely high risk I've just taken everything at face value. I was so stressed and anxious about it all but now I've had my vaccine and things are relaxing I'm starting to think about all the other theories. Not that I necessarily believe them but I feel I'm only just becoming interested in the other theories

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

So you think it’s true?

The lab leak is looking increasingly more likely IMO.

Which for me spells huge concerns about all sources who dismissed it outright and hampered investigations.

I have no problem with any outlet which communicates 'here's the evidence for and against, difficult to call at this point'.
I have a huge problems with outlets that called anyone investigating the WIV a 'racist' or a 'conspiracy theorist', or saying that the lab leak theory had been 'debunked'.

Why does it look more likely? How did it hamper investigations, and what difference does the origin make to the last year?

@Peppapeg

Microchips in animals aren't a fluid, they are absolutely tiny but wouldn't fit through a standard vaccine needle sharp. Having a microchip that could be administered via a fluid isnt overly unlikely, but being able to transmit any worthwhile data reliably from it to somewhere else or for it to provide any functionality would be impossible (at the moment). Biological computing exists where people seek to utilise the human body in playing a role in the functionality of the chip, but that's a while off.

Plus, the needle currently required to administer a microchip to an animal is like a knitting needle! Judging by the tiny needle used to administer covid jabs, it is laughable that microchips could be involved.

I'm just relieved people are starting to become aware of it.

My parents are both into different branches of it, it's nuts. They've been divorced 25 years.

Mum is into the natural health, crystal healing, we are all on a different wavelength and reality doesn't exist, it's just an illusion rabbithole. (She's sadly so far down this rabbithole she is living in Wonderland, and not as happily as that sounds.) She won't have the vaccine because she doesn't believe it's necessary or effective. Which I would respect her choice on, except she's been feeling so isolated and depressed due to lockdown she's started going to anti-lockdown, anti-mask, anti-vaccine protests. I haven't told DH, because he is already twitchy about the no vaccine thing and doesn't want us to take our newborn (when he arrives) to meet the family. She also refuses mammograms even though there is a family history of breast cancer because she wouldn't take cancer treatment anyway, she would rather treat with faith healing, homeopathy and crystals.

Dad is into the conspiracy stuff. Genuinely believes aliens exist but are being covered up. Wouldn't be surprised if he was a flat earther. Got into a load of survivalist stuff. Thinks there's about to be a mass flood in which we all drown because we are all sheeple who don't know the truth. Chemtrails are a thing, 5G is damaging, the rich and powerful elite are all in on secrets they won't let the rest of us know about. He has been silent about his thoughts on the pandemic, I've no idea of his vaccine status, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was thinking along the lines of it all being a very convenient excuse for fear and control. He doesn't do natural healing I don't think but he does associate with heavy weed smokers. Don't know how much he smokes himself. A bit, for sure, a lot, I don't think so.

The weirdest thing is I can see how they've both got sucked into it, and it's probably along similar lines to what they originally saw in each other and what got them together, but they've gone down such different paths of the same thing.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

Why does it look more likely?

It's all a massive long story spanning over the course of the last year. But, yesterday there has been a big ruckus as the FOI request from Buzzfeed into Fauci's emails has dropped. everyone's pouring over it. If you don't know the names of any of the key players not much of it will make sense to you though, and lots has been redacted. But, it all looks a bit suspect. Still early to tell, though.
twitter.com/JasonLeopold/status/1399792863806824449?s=20

How did it hamper investigations

How did what hamper which investigations?

What difference does the origin make to the last year

I literally don't know where to start with this.

Is this too difficult a conversation for you that you have to ?

This is your exact quote about hampering investigations:

Which for me spells huge concerns about all sources who dismissed it outright and hampered investigations.

What difference does the origins make to lockdown etc?

An interesting article it explains why conspiracy theorists and anti vaxers use antisemitic messages. How this stuff is often more complex than it first seems. You have to read the whole article really.

(I am in favour of free choice by the way. So on offence to anyone choosing not to have the jab. I only don't like anti vaxers that are prats or spread fake information about it.)

inews.co.uk/news/anti-vaxxers-conspiracy-theorists-anti-semitic-memes-covid-misinformation-online-1011858

Lab leak origin theorists were dismissed as conspiracy theorists

They still are.

Science is 100% certain the virus did not originate in a lab - it's 100% naturally evolved.

There are a handful who believe it MAY have escaped from a lab where it was under study, but there is no evidence for this - but if you close down investigations, people assume conspiracy, hence Biden has ordered the intelligence community to find evidence if there is any.

There's no pleasing some people though is there....
You're not investigating this because it's a government conspiracy...
You're investigating this so it MUST be true....

[quote TruelyStruttingHotpants]An interesting article it explains why conspiracy theorists and anti vaxers use antisemitic messages. How this stuff is often more complex than it first seems. You have to read the whole article really.

(I am in favour of free choice by the way. So on offence to anyone choosing not to have the jab. I only don't like anti vaxers that are prats or spread fake information about it.)

inews.co.uk/news/anti-vaxxers-conspiracy-theorists-anti-semitic-memes-covid-misinformation-online-1011858[/quote]
X1000 times yes

so many people are so eager to share a source or meme that backs up their thinking they don't stop to think about where it came from

I think it's an extreme case of coping mechanism. The fear is so great so their brain is tricking them to believe something unbelievable for most people. I think it's sad, and I really don't like reading people calling them stupid etc.

It is seen at anti lockdown or anti vax protests too. Signs and images that tap into something very dark. A real racist undercurrent is often seen and ignored if it backs the conspiracy theory involved or the narrative wanted.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

Is this too difficult a conversation for you that you have to ?

Pretty much, yes! You just seem so far behind...

This is your exact quote about hampering investigations:

Which for me spells huge concerns about all sources who dismissed it outright and hampered investigations.

Yes, I was wanting you to specify, but perhaps I should have realised that as as someone who asked 'Why would anyone cover up a lab leak?' I was giving you too much credit.

What difference does the origins make to lockdown etc?

Again, to me, this to me is a question on a par with 'Why would anyone cover up a lab leak?'.

No answers then?

What difference does the origins make to lockdown etc?

Again, to me, this to me is a question on a par with 'Why would anyone cover up a lab leak?'.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba
Well clearly I'm slow too, but what difference would it have made?
If the origin of the virus was found to be from the lab rather than the wet market, I don't see how this would have changed the trajectories of suppression policies worldwide. The virus is the virus, no matter it's origins.