Genuine question for anti-Vaxxers

[kiddo5467]

So I have a question for SOME of the people who are against the vaccine.

It's not really relevant for those who don't want the vaccine as they don't believe it's been tested enough and don't want to be injected with something they don't know enough about. That's not my personal view but I can at least understand the rationale behind it and see why it would out some people off.

However, I've seen more & more people posting online about it being a 'conspiracy' and the government conning us all into getting the vaccine to suit their own agenda. This is what o can't get my head around. Do some people believe the government are trying to inject us with something negative to achieve some other hidden objective? If so, what do they think they're trying to achieve? Is everyone that's had the vaccine going to be wiped out? Unable to re-produce? Be tracked but some strange fluid in our bodies??

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, I'd genuinely like to understand what people who believe the vaccine is part of a conspiracy, believe the conspiracy is?

@BertieBotts

Did you watch that Channel 4 documentary the other day? I've just seen it on catch up. It's very good actually.

What Samantha says is very true. People are scared. Antivax has been written off or ignored for years as just some irrelevant fringe weirdos but there is actually a huge amount of money behind it and they target anyone who is vulnerable.

What that actually shows us is that there are certain groups who are being failed and feeling neglected by the governments, by the healthcare systems. If we don't want them to be taken in by charlatans then it's important to hear their voices and experiences, in health policy, in government policy as well.

What that actually shows us is that there are certain groups who are being failed

It does nothing of the kind, any more than scammers stealing people's money "shows us" there are groups for whom the "money system" hasn't worked.

The issue is that MOST "normal" people, completely refuse to get involved in online arguments. A long time ago, there was a series of memes going around about "Bill" - "Bill sees something wrong on the internet. Bill ignores it and does something else. Be like Bill" They garnered millions of likes.

But this is what happens when the ONLY people shouting into the vacuum are the imbeciles, the crackpots and those with evil agendas. People who genuinely don't know see a very one-sided picture. Over time what was once a fringe movement, gathers more and more supporters until one day it is mainstream despite still being completely nonsensical.

Some examples of this: Anti GMO, Organic vegetables, Acupuncture, Homeopathy, Reiki.....

So, no we don't want more idiots voices heard - we want, heck we need people to spend more time listening to experts and less to celebrities and strangers on the internet. HOW we achieve that though is another question....

Some people are naturally more paranoid than others. Perhaps not enough to qualify as having a mental illness because they otherwise (appear to) function well but strong paranoid traits. If it wasn't vaccines they would find another target for their paranoia.
Otherwise..? Inability to think critically and poor scientific literacy.

@speckledostrichegg

What difference does the origins make to lockdown etc?

Again, to me, this to me is a question on a par with 'Why would anyone cover up a lab leak?'.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba
Well clearly I'm slow too, but what difference would it have made?
If the origin of the virus was found to be from the lab rather than the wet market, I don't see how this would have changed the trajectories of suppression policies worldwide. The virus is the virus, no matter it's origins.

Because if it was found to be man-made, questions would rightly be raised around the exact circumstances; an accident or purposeful to affect economies around the globe? It wouldn't make a difference to lockdown itself, but the implications of that would be very far reaching.

Because if it was found to be man-made, questions would rightly be raised around the exact circumstances; an accident or purposeful to affect economies around the globe? It wouldn't make a difference to lockdown itself, but the implications of that would be very far reaching.

Of course, but my question was to the poster who said:

What difference does the origins make to lockdown etc?

Again, to me, this to me is a question on a par with 'Why would anyone cover up a lab leak?'.

The lab origin paper is a preprint, IE, not yet peer-reviewed and by no means the scientific consensus as far as I understand.

The human brain loves drama, intrigue, power and subterfuge as well. I think that is part of the appeal of these theories for some.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

No answers then?

Have you heard the name Peter Daszak? Shi Zhengli? Heard of EcoHealth Alliance? Of 'gain of function' research?

Have you wondered why the early 2020 videos from China of people 'dropping down dead' on the streets wasn't something that happened here (or anywhere else)?

What you're asking is for an colossal essay from me, because you don't seem to know anything.

I could try making a start, but would you read it?

I have, yes. I’ve spent a lot of time on these boards. Fire in.

@Peppapeg

but just to jump on that point - I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting it was deliberately released from the lab in Wuhan

I have a friend who would be described as antivax. I have been pondering for a while what has led them to this position. I think it is supported by the fact that there have been real conspiracies and some plausible conspiracies and then I think their imagination takes hold.

I curious how an anti vax person would respond if they knew someone who had tested positive for COVID. Would they happily have close contact. I also wonder how they will respond if there is some form of COVID passport.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

The virus is the virus, no matter it's origins.

This is true. But, have you not noticed that the global shutdown that we have experienced was unprecedented?

Look at the swine flu video I posted from up thread. I bet most people barely remember 2009. Most people who lived through it don't remember 1968, and have to be told that there was a serious global pandemic.

The virus is the virus, no matter it's origins - yes, but the reaction to this virus has been highly unusual, don't you think.

Many think that 'there was nothing else we could do but lockdowns'. The origins of the virus may well have a lot to do with that liine of thinking.

What’s your theory then? Why lockdown if we had other options?

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

I have, yes. I’ve spent a lot of time on these boards. Fire in.

You tell me what you know about each of those, first, in detail, so that I don't go over what you know already.

If you don't I'll say 'No answer, huh?'

I’ve just told you what I know. This is your theory to prove.

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

The virus is the virus, no matter it's origins.

This is true. But, have you not noticed that the global shutdown that we have experienced was unprecedented?

Look at the swine flu video I posted from up thread. I bet most people barely remember 2009. Most people who lived through it don't remember 1968, and have to be told that there was a serious global pandemic.

The virus is the virus, no matter it's origins - yes, but the reaction to this virus has been highly unusual, don't you think.

Many think that 'there was nothing else we could do but lockdowns'. The origins of the virus may well have a lot to do with that liine of thinking.

Many think that 'there was nothing else we could do but lockdowns'. The origins of the virus may well have a lot to do with that liine of thinking.

I don't understand how this relates to it's origins? You think globally lockdown would have been less likely if it had come from lab and was known at the time? Why?

The reaction hasn't been unusual - it's far more transmissible than swine flu, hence the need for lockdown restrictions

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

Why lockdown if we had other options?

Personally I think a mix of fear, stupidity, and weak leaders who pander to public panic.

Eighteen months of lockdown to pander to public panic? Instead of your more sensible suggestion of.................?

@SamanthaChumbaMumba

Why lockdown if we had other options?

Personally I think a mix of fear, stupidity, and weak leaders who pander to public panic.

how does this relate to the origins and why would knowing it had come from the lab in wuhan (if indeed it did), make a difference?

Considering nearly all of the similar corona type viruses and many more besides such as HIV/aids , Ebola and the plague for example have crossed over from animals through the food chain, it seems more of a likely scenario, don’t you think?

A lot of people in the homebirth group I'm part of are requesting midwives who have not been vaccinated for fear of "shedding".

Totally overwhelmed with it all tbh!

A pet microchip is the size of a grain of rice. Injecting it is a pretty unpleasant shock for the animal. It’s more like a staple gun than a needle. And that’s just to allow a readable serial number

@strangeshapedpotato

Lab leak origin theorists were dismissed as conspiracy theorists

They still are.

Science is 100% certain the virus did not originate in a lab - it's 100% naturally evolved.

There are a handful who believe it MAY have escaped from a lab where it was under study, but there is no evidence for this - but if you close down investigations, people assume conspiracy, hence Biden has ordered the intelligence community to find evidence if there is any.

There's no pleasing some people though is there....
You're not investigating this because it's a government conspiracy...
You're investigating this so it MUST be true....

If its a totally natural virus, why hasn't it ever appeared before?

there is no natural immunity to CV-19, its as if it came from space..... and it also appears to be very "smart" in that it is constantly changing, CV in farming doesn't do this.

A cornered China would be a huge threat and potentially make Cv look like a walk in the park.