Fed up of being labelled an ‘anti-vaxxer’

[WilsonMilson]

Just that. I’ve expressed some concerns about the vaccines, AZ in particular.

I’m very glad we have vaccines for the elderly and vulnerable, as covid can be deadly. But, as yet we simply do not have the data on longer term outcomes from vaccines and that concerns me when we start jabbing the young and the healthy. We are already seeing blood clots with AZ becoming a serious issue.

I’d consider myself an educated and informed person. My ds has had all his routine vaccinations to now and I am not a tin foil hat wearer, flat earthier, or conspiracy loon of any description. Yet, whenever trying to initiate a sensible discussion based on science and reason, it gets shot down as conspiracy or am labelled an ‘anti-vaxxer’, which I am emphatically not.

Why is is so difficult, here and elsewhere to have a sensible discussion about this?

I don’t share all your concerns (I am having my first jab, Pfizer, in about 2 hours time), but I agree that there is a horribly sneery attitude to people having genuine concerns.

I don’t count actual conspiracy theorists within that - the people who say it’s part of some big plan to control the global population or whatever. I mean people who are asking good faith questions.

Exactly, it seems that anyone questioning or concerned about vaccines is lumped into the category of conspiracy theorist or anti vaxxer. It makes having a rational discussion almost impossible.

It's just name calling like in school. Just meet it with no response that's the best way.

being hesitant about a vaccine and choosing not to have isn't being an "anti-vaxxer"

trying to justify that decision with misinformation is however

Because the more young and healthy people decide not to get vaccinated, but do return to socialising etc, the more covid circulates in the general population and therefore the more risk to those people who are at genuinely high risk from either the vaccine or covid, like my 15 year old who has already survived a very severe thrombocytopenia vaccine reaction from a flu jab and who we will really have to genuinely make a potentially life threatening choice for.

HTH.

My advice is to not let it bother you.

@WyldStallions

Because the more young and healthy people decide not to get vaccinated, but do return to socialising etc, the more covid circulates in the general population and therefore the more risk to those people who are at genuinely high risk from either the vaccine or covid, like my 15 year old who has already survived a very severe thrombocytopenia vaccine reaction from a flu jab and who we will really have to genuinely make a potentially life threatening choice for.

HTH.

The thing is though, you can't expect people to prioritise the health of strangers over their own health. I'm getting the vaccine, but I would not have got the AZ vaccine. Thankfully they changed the advice to over 40s before it was my turn as I'm 30, so I should be offered a different one.

Who are you starting these conversations with.
I have never started a discussion about vaxing.
Why would you. Be adult and make up your own mind and do it.

Because there's been a spate of posts which go:

"I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I'm on the fence having the vaccine because insert spurious, long debunked nonsense here, AIBU"

So people don't believe it on face value. Quite rightly.

Just be pleased that those of us who have chosen to have it, will be offering a degree of protection for those of you who don't.
One friend who's not having it was telling me the same stuff about long term effects etc, all while eating a KFC and puffing on a fag.

@WilsonMilson

I'm sorry you appear to have missed the replies that I and many others have posted, doing our best to explain why certain things aren't a concern or the risks of the vax v the risks of Covid.

So, so, many threads. I have definitely made an effort to educate rather than belittle, but at the moment it's hard to be patient when there are several threads every day, with OP's appearing not to even try to understand.

What is it specifically you'd like to discuss?

Quick one though. The vaccine is in & out if your system very quickly. It just makes your body make antibodies so that you recognise it, if you get it and so your body can fight it off.

That's why long term problems don't occur, because it's just not there to cause problems.

The thing is though, you can't expect people to prioritise the health of strangers over their own health. I'm getting the vaccine, but I would not have got the AZ vaccine. Thankfully they changed the advice to over 40s before it was my turn as I'm 30, so I should be offered a different one.

Have you never met a HCP who worked through the pandemic?

[quote AlmostSummer21]@WilsonMilson

I'm sorry you appear to have missed the replies that I and many others have posted, doing our best to explain why certain things aren't a concern or the risks of the vax v the risks of Covid.

So, so, many threads. I have definitely made an effort to educate rather than belittle, but at the moment it's hard to be patient when there are several threads every day, with OP's appearing not to even try to understand.

What is it specifically you'd like to discuss?

Quick one though. The vaccine is in & out if your system very quickly. It just makes your body make antibodies so that you recognise it, if you get it and so your body can fight it off.

That's why long term problems don't occur, because it's just not there to cause problems.[/quote]
This is excellent. I hadn’t thought of it that way before but it makes complete sense.

I agree with you, OP.

@AlmostSummer21 The vaccine is in & out if your system very quickly. It just makes your body make antibodies so that you recognise it, if you get it and so your body can fight it off.

It's not nearly as simple as that. Here's a pre-print of a very interesting article explaining how the AZ vaccine (and to a lesser extent the J&J vaccine) are able to cause severe clotting events.

Vaccine-induced Covid-19 Mimicry” Syndrome:

Splice reactions within the SARS-CoV-2 Spike open reading frame result in Spike protein variants that may cause thromboembolic events in patients immunized with vector-based vaccines.

www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1

This is a very good example of an event that only comes to light when thousands of people have been vaccinated, but if you are one of the unlucky ones, it can be fatal.

www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1

Remember the MMR jab and all the parents who refused that vax? Yep...this...

I think the problem is lack of choice of vaccine and the fact there is a rare but potential fatal or severe life-changing side effect associated with one of the vaccines. I think it is about time people were offered choice of vaccine regardless of age or allowed to pay privately for a vaccine of choice. Having read all the information I could find I was much happier about receiving Pfizer - and luckily this is what I was given. I would not have accepted AZ and would have no-doubt been accused of being an anti-vaxxer

Take the vaccine or not. But it gets tiring to see the same misinformation being trotted out by the same old posters. Such as " the vaccine does not reduce transmission so why should you care if I take it?". We know by now that it does.

I think some people are being a bit hysterical about AZ. It's tragic that people have died and I fully acknowledge that. Heartbreaking.

However I think some need to remember that it's still a small percentage and there are sadly, a few casualties with most vaccines. We need to trust the science. Extensive Vaccine trials & testing have been done on all vaccines. If we're not virologist or scientists in this field then we don't have sufficient expertise to question it. Or to say that it's fine and risk free.

Me personally, I have a whole list of chronic illnesses and have had both my AZ vaccines. Had a few aches & pains after the first one, otherwise no issue. That's just my experience though of course. I'm not one of those ignorant people who believes that because they're ok, that it's the same for everyone else.

OP, I agree that it's right to ask questions and wrong to shut down intelligent debate (on any subject).

But I think the thing people are finding frustrating is why some people are asking so many more questions about this and seem so focused on the (tiny) risks compared to lots of other areas of our lives. Think of the people (nearly all of us) who take medication or contraceptives after just a quick skim of the list of side effects, or don't worry at all about the ingredients that go into common processed foods, or buy a car without considering how its safety standards compare to alternative brands, or would never dream of comparing air quality of different areas before moving house etc etc etc. The list is endless.

I think that's why the phrase "anti-vaxxer" is used (I'm not condoning its use btw). Because some people seem SO concerned about the possible side effects of this vaccine, despite its known benefits, compared to all the hundreds and hundreds of other risks they could be worrying about.

I think people are fooling themselves to believe one vaccine is more safe or less safe than others. It is just we are currently more aware of one issue. We do know however that other vaccines also are being investigated for various other issues. However the danger from the vaccines is so tiny that I personally feel the benefits outweigh the dangers. Saying that I am a strong believer in free choice. Even if I would prefer everyone to get the jab. You are not an anti vaxer to me for not wanting it. To me anti vaxer are people that spread misinformation. That is something morally wrong.

Anti-vaxxers are a very vocal minority that have always been around. They are also against ALL vaccines.

Being worried or hesitant about a particular one does not make someone an anti-vaxxer. Just like not eating chicken does not mean you are a vegetarian.

@Mumoftwoinprimary

The thing is though, you can't expect people to prioritise the health of strangers over their own health. I'm getting the vaccine, but I would not have got the AZ vaccine. Thankfully they changed the advice to over 40s before it was my turn as I'm 30, so I should be offered a different one.

Have you never met a HCP who worked through the pandemic?

My mum. But what does that have to do with anything?

@CrunchyCarrot

There is a difference though between "long term" side effects and "delayed" side effects and these seems to be conflated and/or used interchangeably.

Rare, long lasting side effects may well only become apparent once you vaccinate thousands or millions of people precisely because they are so rare. Importantly however, these side effects will still occur/present in individuals very soon after the vaccine is administered (within days/weeks).

Delayed side effects I would consider to be side effects that don't present in individuals for several months/years after the vaccine has been administered. It is these that just don't occur with vaccines because of the in/out nature of how they work.

The reality is that you can't operate a trial with millions of people in it, if a side effect is so rare you only see a few cases per million people it is very likely that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks.

Watching 30,000 people in a trial for a very long period won't help you identify very rare, 1 in a million side effects, The only way to identify those is by vaccinating very large numbers of people.

I would automatically call all people who refuse the vaccine anti vaxxers. However from my point of view it is irrelevant.

Unless people have been told that they are advised that vaccination is medically contraindicated, or they haven't been offered one yet I think that every vaccinated person helps to protect those who can't be.

Sorry, I meant I wouldn't, not I would.