Does anyone else think the trial club nights at Liverpool are a mistake?

[ZNation]

www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-56943652

Trial club nights 6000 people no masks or social distancing. You have to have had negative lateral test before attending and are 'encouraged' not compulsory for pcr test 5 days after.
I think this is too soon to be trialling large crowds when people can't even go in their mums house indoors

@SeaTurtles92

I think it's ridiculous. We still have restrictions yet 6000 people can go off and mingle whilst the rest of us muppets abide to the rules.

Absolute joke. Who's even to say that the test is even their own.

Do you recall how long Liverpool was under lockdown for? Whilst you could go off and mingle.

Regardless of the results of the ‘trial’, the trial will be used as an excuse to put Liverpool into lockdown. The government hate Liverpool.

Yes the govt hate Liverpool but I'm more surprised they didnt try this in Manchester.
The Govt hate Andy Burnham and if they tried to do it in Manchester and he said no they would spin it as Burnham keeping restrictions on Manchester after the Govt screwed Manchester over last year

@10milewalk

I saw clips on the news and it filled me with dread. Far too much, far too soon in my opinion.

I do think we slowly need to get back to some kind of normal again, but this just felt like too big a step.

Aren't we supposed to go back to near normal in June? That's next month. Normality needs trialing first.

@ZNation

Yes the govt hate Liverpool but I'm more surprised they didnt try this in Manchester. The Govt hate Andy Burnham and if they tried to do it in Manchester and he said no they would spin it as Burnham keeping restrictions on Manchester after the Govt screwed Manchester over last year

They used Liverpool due to the successful mass testing pilot in the city to get cases down.

In fact where the government let the city down was keeping Liverpool in tier 2 throughout December while the rest of the north was in tier 3. Everyone descended on the city for nights out while the variant ran wild. The government kept us in tier 2 because they wanted to show the pilot scheme worked. Our hospitals were in a dire state in Jan and Feb.

@TimeIsUp

The follow up test is not compulsory because we can’t expect everyone to test themselves after every single activity they do this summer. It’s enough we’ll be testing before doing most of them.

But isn't the point that this was a trial to see what happens?

Yes, but you can stop participating in a study at any point if you decide you don't want to continue with it. You can't compel someone to undergo a medical procedure based on consent from five days ago if they've since changed their mind (and how would you enforce it, anyway)? But hopefully the majority will get PCR tests as requested, and anyone who gets symptoms will be more likely to want to.

@10milewalk

I saw clips on the news and it filled me with dread. Far too much, far too soon in my opinion.

I do think we slowly need to get back to some kind of normal again, but this just felt like too big a step.

If we wait any longer to do experiments like this there won't be enough Covid around to make them useful. Events like this fill me with anticipation!

@pontypridd

No one here is arguing that the Liverpool event didn’t look like heaps of fun, but they claim it’s for research purposes but this is not how a proper research is conducted.

I agree @CovidHalloween

Without wanting to become to conspiracytheoryish - what would be the motive for doing this other than research ... perhaps it's all above board but being done badly?

There's lots of this research going on in Liverpool - is that right? It's almost as if there's a wish to reduce the Liverpool population.

I woke up this morning in a bad mood but you’ve really brightened my day, thank you . Truly one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve ever read on here.

@10milewalk

I saw clips on the news and it filled me with dread. Far too much, far too soon in my opinion.

I do think we slowly need to get back to some kind of normal again, but this just felt like too big a step.

How is it 'too soon'? At the risk of sounding like a broken record, over 60% of people have antibodies, not far off the same number of adults have been vaccinated (including the most vulnerable), infection rates are currently around 1 in 1000, the pandemic has been declared over in the UK (it's endemic rather than pandemic status now), we've left respiratory illness season.

How long do you want to wait?

I can understand why they are doing this experiment, it's not just the nightclub industry but any other business involving large gatherings (sporting events, theatre, weddings etc) that have been affected so surely it's better to have a contained event with effects closely monitored before just opening up everything in June?

I have questions about the following for my own education:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, over 60% of people have antibodies, not far off the same number of adults have been vaccinated (including the most vulnerable)

How do we know that 60% of people have antibodies? For example everyone I know who has participated in the Biobank research have tested negative for antibodies even tho they have been vaccinated (doesn't mean they aren't protected by the vaccine however). No one I know has participated in any other anti-body testing so where does that 60% come from?

How many of those participating in the night club experiment are of an age that they have been vaccinated? Do we know that? I am assuming that anyone who is CEV wouldn't participate even if vaccinated.

How do we know that 60% of people have antibodies? For example everyone I know who has participated in the Biobank research have tested negative for antibodies even tho they have been vaccinated (doesn't mean they aren't protected by the vaccine however). No one I know has participated in any other anti-body testing so where does that 60% come from?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyantibodydatafortheuk/28april2021

What’s funny is that we were all told on here to ‘trust the science’ when ‘science’ was telling us we have to stay in our homes. Now ‘the science’ is trialling ways for us to get back to normal, we should no longer ‘trust the science’. In fact ‘the science’ is attempting to cull the population of Liverpool 😂.
Now is the perfect time to carry out trials such as these. The roadmap is currently stating that nightclubs will be open from June 21st. That’s next month. If we don’t trial it now, when will we?
And the reason they’re using LF tests for the trial is that in all likelihood, once everything has reopened and the majority of adults are vaccinated, PCR tests will only be used in clinical settings (like with flu). Test centres will disappear. The trial is about replicating what will happen in the real world.

If it was a proper experiment, they did PCR tests before and compulsory tests afterwards AND people isolated afterwards so no risk of onward transmission into community, then OK. They're not doing it properly so no.

We all saw the photos of the crowds outside in India, and we've seen what happened. It's irresponsible and lateral flow tests are very inaccurate.

For those saying it was too much fun to be a science experiment- they were trying to recreated as close as possible the real thing. They wanted people to behave the way they would in a group indoor event. They could just have put them in a room together for a while, but getting them to dance and have fun meant they moved about more, would breathe more heavily etc.

The trial of the Blossoms gig that's coming up soon has involved those going to be encouraged to sing along - something that's been banned for a long time - to see if that causes a spike in cases more than just being physically close together.

They need the LFTs because they arent as accurate, but are what venues can realistically reopen asking for, so this is a trial of how well they work as well.

I hope it doesn't lead to a spike in cases, but if it does, I'll be glad we tried it first and found out before opening up every venue on the same date.

[quote Spectrumofhumanlife]How do we know that 60% of people have antibodies? For example everyone I know who has participated in the Biobank research have tested negative for antibodies even tho they have been vaccinated (doesn't mean they aren't protected by the vaccine however). No one I know has participated in any other anti-body testing so where does that 60% come from?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyantibodydatafortheuk/28april2021[/quote]
So it's 'likelihood' and 'estimates' based on a random sample. Doesn't fill me with confidence, especially as those attending the event are unlikely to have been vaccinated yet (unless the 6000 people include volunteers across all age groups ?)

I hope it doesn't lead to a spike in cases, but if it does, I'll be glad we tried it first and found out before opening up every venue on the same date

Exactly this. What’s the point in trialling something in conditions that don’t replicate real life? Sure we could have used PCR tests before, forced isolation then PCR after, but that isn’t what’s going to be happening in the real world, in just 7 weeks time. I don’t think people really understand how trials work.

So it's 'likelihood' and 'estimates' based on a random sample. Doesn't fill me with confidence, especially as those attending the event are unlikely to have been vaccinated yet (unless the 6000 people include volunteers across all age groups ?)

Again, that’s how science works. It’s impossible to test every single person to find the actual number. This is tried and tested methodology.
The ONS know what they are doing. Why do you think they don’t? They are experts in this sort of thing.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-about-the-events-research-programme-erp-paving-the-way-for-larger-audiences-to-attend-sport-theatre-and-gigs-safely-this-summer/guidance-on-the-events-research-programme

It's all part of a trial to see if it's safe to get things back to normal.

The work that has gone, and will still be going into the development and analysis of this trial will be immense. But it’s all pointless because some people on MN would have done it differently .

@IloveJKRowling

If it was a proper experiment, they did PCR tests before and compulsory tests afterwards AND people isolated afterwards so no risk of onward transmission into community, then OK. They're not doing it properly so no.

We all saw the photos of the crowds outside in India, and we've seen what happened. It's irresponsible and lateral flow tests are very inaccurate.

This is true, but what do we expect to happen in June when theoretically everything is opened back up again, perhaps with no social distancing?

@IloveJKRowling - but they weren't doing an experiment to see if people who definitely didn't have covid might magically give covid to each other ! Nor were they doing an experiment to find out if people in a room together would spread covid if someone definitely has it.

What they were testing was the system they have set up to reopen indoor venues. That's the thing they were testing, so they had to test the system they will use, not a different, better system that is impractical on a mass scale so won't be used when we reopen venues nationwide.

@Spectrumofhumanlife

What’s funny is that we were all told on here to ‘trust the science’ when ‘science’ was telling us we have to stay in our homes. Now ‘the science’ is trialling ways for us to get back to normal, we should no longer ‘trust the science’. In fact ‘the science’ is attempting to cull the population of Liverpool 😂. Now is the perfect time to carry out trials such as these. The roadmap is currently stating that nightclubs will be open from June 21st. That’s next month. If we don’t trial it now, when will we? And the reason they’re using LF tests for the trial is that in all likelihood, once everything has reopened and the majority of adults are vaccinated, PCR tests will only be used in clinical settings (like with flu). Test centres will disappear. The trial is about replicating what will happen in the real world.

Yeah, it might not be perfect, but do people really just expect all restrictions everywhere until June and then magically everything's normal again?

Either we trial things extensively now, ahead of any 'grand reopening' next month, or we shut ourselves away for another year.

[quote MargosKaftan]@IloveJKRowling - but they weren't doing an experiment to see if people who definitely didn't have covid might magically give covid to each other ! Nor were they doing an experiment to find out if people in a room together would spread covid if someone definitely has it.

What they were testing was the system they have set up to reopen indoor venues. That's the thing they were testing, so they had to test the system they will use, not a different, better system that is impractical on a mass scale so won't be used when we reopen venues nationwide.

[/quote]
Exactly this. What’s the point in testing a scenario where loads of people who almost definitely don’t have Covid get together en masse. It wouldn’t tell us anything.

@Spectrumofhumanlife

So it's 'likelihood' and 'estimates' based on a random sample. Doesn't fill me with confidence, especially as those attending the event are unlikely to have been vaccinated yet (unless the 6000 people include volunteers across all age groups ?)

Again, that’s how science works. It’s impossible to test every single person to find the actual number. This is tried and tested methodology.
The ONS know what they are doing. Why do you think they don’t? They are experts in this sort of thing.

I wasn't questioning their capability. I was questioning the statement posted in this thread that 'over 60% HAVE antibodies' - if it had said 'it is estimated that' or ' the likelihood of having antibodies...'

I'm not a scientist so semantics matter to me. But regardless, I think the experiment is important, I am just questioning some of the statements made on here.

There's lots of this research going on in Liverpool - is that right? It's almost as if there's a wish to reduce the Liverpool population

Scousercide 😲