Those of you who don't mind or even support covid-certificates

[lljkk]

(in any context, maybe just for airplane travel or to visit a care home, "covid certificates" = covid passports, could be a negative PCR/LFT or proof of vaccine or exemption to travel or go to the pub or a gig maybe, etc)

What conditions need to be met (in your mind) for the presented covid-certs to be stopped & no longer required? What is the threshold you want to see that would make you think "It's Ok to drop that now." How would you know?

I doubt you will be able to get insurance to travel abroad without a vaccination, no matter what this or other governments say about passports.

Timescale until passports are no longer needed inside the UK? Probably within months after every person - adults and children - have been offered the chance to be vaccinated.

Any major safety scares with the vaccines (and I don't think AZ is at that point yet), and of course it will all be a much longer process.

[quote Looneytune253]@BeingATwatItsABingThing would you rather things just stayed closed then? Yes I realise that it seems a bit unfair but if the vaccinated people can slowly get back to some normality surely that's a good thing. Just because you can't have something doesn't mean no one else should. A lot of the vaccinated have been shielding and therefore doing nothing at all. [/quote]
No. I’d rather they were only introduced after everyone’s been vaccinated. The roadmap was introduced and didn’t mention covid passports at all. By the time everything is opening up fully, everyone should be vaccinated.

Just because you can’t have something doesn’t mean no one else should.

How on earth is it fair that my DCs have done nearly nothing for a whole year to protect others and will have to watch others start doing things again from home? They won’t be able to go to places because Mummy and Daddy haven’t been vaccinated yet. Their friends with older/vulnerable parents will but they won’t. This situation is not the same as someone else having a Ferrari and us having a Ford Focus. It’s perfectly possible to wait to introduce this for a few more months and everyone’s been vaccinated.

I do not object as long as

A) it is introduced after all adults - assuming those under 18 are exempt - have been offered the vaccine. Personally I think that's why late summer is being talked of.

And

B) only applying for things that are totally voluntary so not essential food shops, medical appointments, job settings or education.

And

C) it is free of charge. I'm a little sceptical of here in Scotland, we didn't get a vaccine card. I'd object to having to pay a GP to have my vaccine status validated.

Racoonworld thank you.

@BeingATwatItsABingThing all adults won't have been vaccinated by the time things fully open up. Opening is 21st June, all adults will have been offered one dose by end of July. Two doses for full vaccination will be by end of October (allowing for the 12 week gap). Full vaccination will be needed for vaccine passports, so there will be a lot of young adults who won't have vaccine passports when things open up.

@AcornAutumn

Redcurrant the fact you find it an odd question alarms me.

But why? Why is it my place to have a threshold for figures etc. We’ve not been given it for anything else. Why this?

Personally I’d carry a Covid passport til the end of my days if it meant an end to lockdowns, social distancing and masks, all of which I personally view as a much greater infringement of my civil liberties than a Covid passport.

It’s a good question.

I don’t really see the point of introducing them when everyone has been offered the vaccine - by that point we’ll have had several weeks of mixing without everyone being vaccinated. What’s it going to add?

[quote Racoonworld]@BeingATwatItsABingThing all adults won't have been vaccinated by the time things fully open up. Opening is 21st June, all adults will have been offered one dose by end of July. Two doses for full vaccination will be by end of October (allowing for the 12 week gap). Full vaccination will be needed for vaccine passports, so there will be a lot of young adults who won't have vaccine passports when things open up.[/quote]
And I, and many other young adults will be unbelievably pissed off if we’re not allowed to do things when the risk to us is very small.

Given we haven’t been given thresholds for easing of any other restrictions why would we get one for this?

That bothers me a lot, actually. Without a clear rationale being applied, how do we know the best decisions were made? How we know we're making a balanced acceptable control decision in the next pandemic?

What form would the "passports" take, do we think?

Israel seems to be relying mostly on a phone app.

There were 41k cases of measles in WHO EU region in first 6 months of 2018. Suppose we call that 80k/yr cases in a population of 750 million. Measles is fairly common & endemic in world's low income countries. No measles passports introduced. So the precedent would be that European countries don't introduce low-disease-risk-certification required for case rates below... 11 per 100k persons, annually? I think that translates into saying no more than 670*11 = 7370 cases/year in UK, when population = 67 million. 614 cases/week (in UK).

Someone say if I did the math wrong.

I’d like some criteria as for the stages of lockdown, and built in review dates against those criteria. Something along the lines of a basket of measure which covered existence, transmissibility and virulence of new strains, level of international travel (and so likelihood of spread of new strains), effectiveness and coverage of vaccinations (including against new strains) and some measure of NHS pressure.

@RedcurrantPuff I agree, if the choice is social distancing and lockdowns or covid passport I choose the covid passport.

@BeingATwatItsABingThing I'm also a young adult. I have had my first vaccination (group 6) so will have had my second by then, but my DH won't have so as a family we will be excluded if vaccine passports come into effect this summer. But I'm assuming a vaccine passport will only be needed for things like travel and gigs, ad if it's needed for other things a negative LFT will be an alternative to having had the vaccine. SO I won't be angry about it, it is much better to have that then continuing lockdowns.

I support them as society needs to get as many people back to normal as quickly as possible whilst controlling the risk of another major wave.

For me it’s not just about the domestic rates in the Uk, it’s about other countries and travellers to the Uk and the risk of unvaccinated people and different strains coming in so I’d like to see them in place until mainland Europe, the states, Africa etc all have their populations vaccinated.

Truthfully - just for domestic use I think its a bonkers idea and unnecessary. For proof of vaccination - it will in the short term disadvantage those who have given up so much ie the younger age groups, if it is based on negative tests - then that is a false security as all it proves is that you were negative at point of testing - a state which can change at any point. Added to the fact it will create antagonism and I suspect further entrenchment from vaccine refusers.

And it seems to be a huge administrative nightmare and ultimately a waste of time once we have vaccinated the majority of the adult population.

Can see more sense to it for international travel - both in terms of not spreading variants - but also because the process of travelling seems to be a big vector of infections.

I assume it will be a condition of international travel until the pandemic is officially over. No problem with that.

Also assume it will be same for large indoor events.

Assume testing may also be a condition for some time to come

I am not clear it is a straight choice between vaccine passports and long term social distancing. If the vaccines work then most people won't really suffer if they catch CV. If they don't work then what is the point of a vaccine certificate.

I think at this halfway point, there is going to be a lot of understandable self-interest. If you have had the vaccine, then an app to allow you to live more freely sounds fab, but if you haven't had the vaccine then an app to allow others to live more freely than you sounds crap.
Then there will be a minority with ethical concerns not driven by self-interest.

I would rather the government close the borders before we become like Chile. Israel's successful vaccination programme was supported by closed borders.

If we get a lot of variants of concern, the vaccine certificate will become a theoretical luxury while we rapidly manufacture some new vaccines and start the vaccination programme from the start again.

Then what - do you only count as vaccinated if you have a vaccine that covers the new variants? And first-wave vaccines become invalid?

I would want to go through another winter to see if there is another surge of cases & deaths.

However I don’t think it should be introduced until all adults have been at least offered two jabs. I’d also like so see a robust exemption policy. If it is left to venues to enforce it will go the way of the mandatory mask wearing.

Yes I realise that it seems a bit unfair but if the vaccinated people can slowly get back to some normality surely that's a good thing. Just because you can't have something doesn't mean no one else should.

Did you have this same attitude re low risk children and young adults during the lockdown?

[quote Racoonworld]@RedcurrantPuff I agree, if the choice is social distancing and lockdowns or covid passport I choose the covid passport.[/quote]
Lockdowns/social distancing were to reduce strain on the NHS. We’ve vaccinated the groups most likely to be hospitalised so these less at risk groups mean little as far as strain on the NHS goes.

I'd be more than happy if we have covid certificates/negative PCR/LFTs for travel/access to certain places, accepting that those who are exempt from both won't be able to supply either.

I think they'd have to stay until most of the world are vaccinated (a couple of years?) and we're sure we can contain any variants. It might seem a long time but for those who are desperate for a holiday abroad, concert, festival whatever to be able to look forward to and enjoy, as well as getting the economy going, people kept in/back into work etc, it has to be the way to go.

I would accept them in the short term. To allow things to open up safely. I would time limit them and have them all expire by April 2022. I would expect to see data published regularly in the meantime and I would not want to see vaccine certification after the above date.

@bumbleymummy I don't disagree with you. But seeing as the people in charge seem to think we may need ongoing restrictions, I personally would rather have covid passports as the lesser of the evils.

Surely they can't be introduced while issues like this are still of concern

aapsonline.org/blood-clotting-needs-to-be-watched-with-all-covid-vaccines/

That bothers me a lot, actually. Without a clear rationale being applied, how do we know the best decisions were made? How we know we're making a balanced acceptable control decision in the next pandemic?

Yeah I don’t disagree there. The lack of transparency throughout on the decision making has been appalling.