To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

I'll ask again.... To what gain? what does Merkel or Macron get by stopping AZ for a few days?

They are seen doing something right now, it’s in the run up to elections and the political benefit from doing this now is bigger than the long term benefits of the vaccine which will come after the election.

Same as in other vaccine sceptical countries with elections coming up.

What I don't understand is, why aren't they pausing the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine? Which has reported slightly more blood clotting incidents than the AZ?

It's a real mystery, that's for sure.

Would you expect the MHRA to not give Hancock the heads up if an issue was found with a vaccine in the UK ?

Yes @jasjas1973, we would. But no issue has been found with the AZ vaccine. As the EMA keeps saying.

As for what do the countries get out of doing this - they get to blame something else for the slow rollout of vaccines in their country. Germany has a general election this year, France next year...

Re, Merkel saying she would not get az because she’s in the wrong age bracket - I’m fascinated by this because for me in encapsulates a lot of the misunderstandings between British and German people.

My British friends agree it casts doubt on the effectiveness of the vaccine in older age groups and will lower uptake in the long term.

My German friends agree that no one should take medicines outside the guidance given by the regulators and that applies to Merkel no less than everyone else. Of course if she agreed to take the az vaccine, not only would she be taking medicine outside of the official advice, but she’s also undermine trust in the German medicines regulator.

Sorry italics fail in the first paragraph of the article, bit at end was my comment.

I think political in the sense that a decision to suspend 'looks' better even though it will cost lives than a decision to carry on with vaccination which may cost a far smaller number of lives.

A political leader doesnt want to be seen as at fault. The spread of a disease can be blamed on the public not following rules. Deaths caused by vaccination are as the result of an action.

Personally I have been happy to take the risk. I have a blood clotting disorder and already knew that the risks of Covid were high for me.

Probably because one is from Britain a country they are determined to give a bloody nose to and one isn’t

The problem is we as a country couldn’t give a stuff about what they do. The problem comes on a more international level in them not getting to grips with a global pandemic and being what looks like deliberately slow at vaccinating their people and are playing Russian roulette with the worlds and their people’s health
Who is to say a strain that doesn’t respond to vaccines doesn’t come out of all this. Then we all have a huge problem.

Ragged ds is a journalist on national media, he says the same.

This is vaccine nationalism, they can’t believe that Britain can do something successful and right.

We both are ardent remainers.

@newstart1234 why is Merkel in wrong age bracket ? EMA has authorised AZ for all ages. And we can already see it works for over 80s by looking at UK death data.
I frankly can't worry about the rest of Europe not getting vaccinated fast but I do care when they give out statements about the vaccine being unsafe. If you don't want AZ vaccine please send all your spare viles to poorer countries who would like it v much. Or Australia since EU banned their exports. Also why is France threatening to sue AZ for lack of supplies if it has decided it's not safe ?
Our government has got masses wrong this last year but vaccine development is not one of them. They backed every horse in the race and so now have plenty of supplies of all vaccines on the way. And the NHS and army know how to do logistics. I am v grateful to them all as the lovely antibodies are in my arm multiplying nicely.

@Umbivalent

What I don't understand is, why aren't they pausing the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine? Which has reported slightly more blood clotting incidents than the AZ?

It's a real mystery, that's for sure.

I think that is a matter for the ema though. If you are saying that the countries need to follow ema guidance, and the ema is investigating one vaccine and not the other, your question is for ema.

In relation to your post that this is an election move, many strict and unpopular measures have been taken and more are coming up, I cannot see that pausing a vaccine which could take the country out of the mire is going to be a popularity measure to help their campaigns. But again, I don't know that, time will tell over the next few days.

@Umbivalent

What I don't understand is, why aren't they pausing the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine? Which has reported slightly more blood clotting incidents than the AZ?

It's a real mystery, that's for sure.

It's been answered many times in this thread.

Whilst there's been clotting reported after both vaccines (more with Pfizer as you say) there's been nothing, until recently, unusual about the clotting.

The recent cases in Denmark and Norway were considered "highly unusual" in the amount of hemorrhaging and other damage suffered. It was the exceptional nature of the clotting and hemorrhaging that drew attention, and it happened to be after the AZ vaccine. That's why.

It's obviously more widely covered in the media over here than elsewhere, since it's a local case (Denmark.) However I do think it was covered in the EMA press conference yesterday.

@Umbivalent

Would you expect the MHRA to not give Hancock the heads up if an issue was found with a vaccine in the UK ?

Yes @jasjas1973, we would. But no issue has been found with the AZ vaccine. As the EMA keeps saying.

As for what do the countries get out of doing this - they get to blame something else for the slow rollout of vaccines in their country. Germany has a general election this year, France next year...

Also just to clarify, the EMA/PRAC haven't said there is no issue, they are still investigating, decision due 18th, they have said that in meantime their position is that benefits outweight risks, and to continue vaccinations.

When Merkel said it, the German regulators had not got the required amount, or type, of data they need to give it the green light for the over 65s, I think she was 66 at the time.

I must also add that each side cannot understand the POV of the other.

Given that she’s the leader of Germany, I think she made the right call, and my British friends cannot understand that one bit.

new I do not think Merkel was wrong in her answer at all, and actually I think she has gotten unfair press in the UK for this.

I know a few Germans and the answer she gave is probably the same answer they would give too.

It's very back and white.

What I can't understand is why the politicians are over riding their own scientists. EMA and WHO have said the vaccine is safe. The UK regulator (which is nothing to do with the government ) says it's safe. A few weeks ago the same countries were threatening all sorts of boycotts because they couldn't get enough AZ. And now it's unsafe - so surely they don't want it anyway. So give it to countries that do want it. UK has enough so we're fine but sure lots of poorer countries will have it please.

We have almost vaccinated half our adult population and almost 2 million people have had 2nd dose. Death rates halved this week. Vaccines work (measles, smallpox, polio, tetanus).

Yes very black and white.

It’s frustrating to see these things interpreted as ‘political’ meaning ‘knocking the az vaccine for political gain’. It’s more cultural or nuanced than that. And it happens the other way round too, I see press coverage of the U.K. here that just doesn’t accurately present the truth because it’s interpreted events from a danish cultural perspective. Understandable I suppose but still frustrating.

@Umbivalent

What I don't understand is, why aren't they pausing the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine? Which has reported slightly more blood clotting incidents than the AZ?

It's a real mystery, that's for sure.

It's actually not a mystery at all and it has been explained many times in this thread already.

The clotting seen with the Pfizer vaccine have been typical and what would be expected.
The AZ vaccine has had a small number of very atypical reactions in young people. It is not the number of clotting incidences, it is these very atypical reactions that are being investigated. This batch of vaccine is being used throughout Europe but not in the UK.

AZ vaccines have been paused for a number of days to look into this and are expected to resume on Friday.

Countries are not pausing a vaccine rollout in the middle of a global pandemic to spite the UK. AZ is half Sweedish for goodness sake. The vaccinations are continuing with other vaccines in the meantime.

The reactions on this thread have been hugely jingoistic and I think people should have a long hard look at themselves and stop criticising how others are doing things if they differ to the UK.

What people are criticising is the language some politicians are using, giving the impression the vaccine is not safe. This is a dangerous game. I understand Denmark researching that batch but Italy threatening to sure for manslaughter when it turns out the man had a heart condition was irresponsible. That's what I'm criticising. The language that can put people off having vaccines. They work. And EU is going a bit slow which is worrying as could cause mutations. Thankfully scientists monitor this and can tweak vaccine accordingly. But the faster populations are immunised the safer the whole world is and we can try and live normally again.

@mumsneedwine

What people are criticising is the language some politicians are using, giving the impression the vaccine is not safe. This is a dangerous game. I understand Denmark researching that batch but Italy threatening to sure for manslaughter when it turns out the man had a heart condition was irresponsible. That's what I'm criticising. The language that can put people off having vaccines. They work. And EU is going a bit slow which is worrying as could cause mutations. Thankfully scientists monitor this and can tweak vaccine accordingly. But the faster populations are immunised the safer the whole world is and we can try and live normally again.

I will not speak for other countries but I do now where I live (Ireland) NO politicians have given the impression that vaccines are unsafe. I fully support the pause of AZ vaccine here. It will have very little impact on the vaccine rollout here. Vaccinations are still going ahead with other vaccines and AZ shortfall will be made up next week. We have had many late deliveries and non deliveries from AZ over the past few months and this has had a much greater impact on the vaccine rollout than this short pause. The fact that our govt are taking the very atypical reactions to this batch of AZ vaccine very seriously only increases my confidence in vaccines overall.

I'll ask again.... To what gain? what does Merkel or Macron get by stopping AZ for a few days?

What they stand to gain by discrediting Astrazeneca is to increase the reputation of the Pjizer vaccine (A German vaccine no less) and the profits for Pjizer. In terms of political gain it is absolutely toxic for Brexit Britain to be seen to be leading the world with vaccines and in a full recovery by the spring, absolutely toxic because particularly France have a very Euro sceptic voting base, and if Brexit is any kind of success this could lead to a Le Pen winning next year's election and all that will mean for the Euro integration project.

Bad news. Disasterous.

The AZ vaccine was politicised by theEU back in January when UVL said that AZ were prioritising the U.K. over the EU and started making threats over the contracts. Up till that point we were all just cracking on with our respective programmes and I imagined a bit of arguing over who is quickest etc in a mostly good natured way. That was the moment it changed and that’s on the EU’s over reaction and panic at a lower delivery schedule (which the U.K. experienced too but did not make a song and dance about) Then all the comments from macron etc further politicised it. All the contract drama, and talk of quasi effective. Even now he is threatening to sue.
That is what has made it political and it really is indefensible.
I have no idea what is behind it all but to me it smacks of panic, sour grapes and a blame game all in the mix.
I do hope it all calms down though.
If Boris or the U.K. government had behaved in this way towards one of the other vaccines, we would all be criticising him and them furiously.

@Itsalonghaul

I'll ask again.... To what gain? what does Merkel or Macron get by stopping AZ for a few days?

What they stand to gain by discrediting Astrazeneca is to increase the reputation of the Pjizer vaccine (A German vaccine no less) and the profits for Pjizer. In terms of political gain it is absolutely toxic for Brexit Britain to be seen to be leading the world with vaccines and in a full recovery by the spring, absolutely toxic because particularly France have a very Euro sceptic voting base, and if Brexit is any kind of success this could lead to a Le Pen winning next year's election and all that will mean for the Euro integration project.

Bad news. Disasterous.

The gain they get is to ensure the vaccine they are giving to their citizens is safe. That is it. It is not a plan to spite the UK or to damage Brexit Britain. AZ is actually half European. I am sorry to tell you but other countries decisions are not made to spite the UK. Pfizer is actually an American company. Biontech is German.

Haven't read all 36 pages so apologies if this has been said already.
But Italy's medicines regulator has come out and said the suspension is purely a political decision.

I know the link is the Metro but its in there.
Metro Article

@sashagabadon

The AZ vaccine was politicised by theEU back in January when UVL said that AZ were prioritising the U.K. over the EU and started making threats over the contracts. Up till that point we were all just cracking on with our respective programmes and I imagined a bit of arguing over who is quickest etc in a mostly good natured way. That was the moment it changed and that’s on the EU’s over reaction and panic at a lower delivery schedule (which the U.K. experienced too but did not make a song and dance about) Then all the comments from macron etc further politicised it. All the contract drama, and talk of quasi effective. Even now he is threatening to sue. That is what has made it political and it really is indefensible. I have no idea what is behind it all but to me it smacks of panic, sour grapes and a blame game all in the mix. I do hope it all calms down though. If Boris or the U.K. government had behaved in this way towards one of the other vaccines, we would all be criticising him and them furiously.

AZ have messed up with European deliveries on many occasions. They have failed to deliver on delivery dates on many many occasions. This has seriously affected the vaccine rollout in many European countries and is still doing so. If another company did the same the EU would call them out on it too. Boris is very far from perfect.

AZ have messed up with European deliveries on many occasions. They have failed to deliver on delivery dates on many many occasions. This has seriously affected the vaccine rollout in many European countries and is still doing so

And yet, EU countries are sitting on millions of doses, quietly going out of date, not having set up mass vaccination in many countries, Italy has only just started. You could argue they are trying to come up with strategies to mitigate the fact that they have not even used the stock they have. Imagine if it goes out of date and it hasn't been used. They could use the excuse that they weren't convinced of it's efficacy or safety.