To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

IMO some of them are thoroughly pissed off that the U.K., which was stupid enough to leave the EU, is not in a worse place re vaccination than they are, and humbly begging for help. According to all that is right and proper in their eyes, the EU should be steaming well ahead, with the poor old U.K. languishing far behind and rueing the day they voted to leave.

In particular Macron, who was one of the first to denigrate the AZ, was IMO severely wounded in his pride that the French Sanofi vaccine, which they’d been relying on, didn’t work - though I believe they’re still working on it.

Might add that I did vote Remain, albeit holding my nose to some extent, since unlike quite a few people I know, I was never a blind worshipper of the EU and all who sail in her.

Yep, we have decided to suspend using a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic just to piss off the UK.

So why aren't we seeing any of this in the UK? We've done way more jabs than the EU and there aren't multiple people dropping dead after.

Those who say it is political...

Where I am (Spain) people are furious at the slow rollout and now this is making it even slower. I was due my AZ vaccine this week as a teacher and it's just been cancelled. I'm so cross with the Spanish govt. Politically speaking they're on a precipice with the opposition making gains in local elections, especially the right wing anti-lockdown people. Why would the Spanish govt piss their voters off to the point of losing power just to take a shot at Britain, especially considering its desperate for British tourists to be vaccinated so they can have the vaccine passports and come and spend this summer.

I am angry about the pause of the AZ, but I don't understand the "it's political" argument when it's more damaging for the home politics?

My favourites response on the debacle was this from one science editor: mobile.twitter.com/TomChivers/status/1371473744988889089

I am not remotely enjoying watching Europe flailing about on this and other elements of the pandemic response. It actually makes me worried about the whole future, what with the decline of the US and rise of China. The EU is not up to its global role.

@ATieLikeRichardGere

Exactly.

I'm also concerned about unstable parts of the world moving further into the sphere of Russia and China, because they are the ones who are supplying them with vaccine. It is extremely concerning.

@FatCatThinCat

It not about politics. It's about healthy people dying after having the vaccine. I'm pleased my country have suspended using it pending further investigation. Ignoring the deaths and ploughing on regardless is reckless.

Did you actually read the statistics? 40 is less than normal in the population. 40 is the same as Pfizer. 40 out of several million is infinitesimally small and Unrelated to the vaccine statistically.

We don’t exactly know what/(why this) has happened to these people. But we do know that the numbers are small. That doesn’t mean I write those people off, I certainly think we need to investigate. But regardless, even if 100% of the deaths were attributable to the vaccine (which is unlikely), it is still a good idea for people over a certain age to get the vaccine.

Re blood clots - this is a risk of the birth control pill, and yet people still take it in their millions. People who are not at risk of dying from not using this particular form of contraception. Covid kills and maims. For anyone over 40/50 ish, it’s still absolutely the right thing to do, to get the jab. I can see a healthy person of 20 being hesitant, but look at what covid has done to Derek Draper. And the unknown thousands with long covid.

I’d happily be injected with AZ today. But I am over the age above. I wouldn’t inject my teens with it just yet.

The EU has created lots of issues over the AZ vaccine right from the start.

But they have a right to suspend it just as the UK had a right to go ahead and approve it early on.

I actually think if they don't want to use it then they should offer it to all those countries that are way behind the queue in terms of being able to source and fund vaccines.

I'm stunned at this. These are countries facing 3rd lockdowns and who feel now is the ideal time to suspend use of a vaccine which could prevent this because of the occurence of a lower level of bllod clots that is found in the "control" population at large. I suspect overseas holidays will be impacted, for those whose booked to go, if countries are still seeing the knock on effect of this come July / August. I've always been a strong remainer but sheesh, they've made an absolute balls up of this vaccination roll-out.

@Waxonwaxoff0

YANBU. And it's going to make some people in the UK nervous about getting it now, when we were doing so well! A colleague of mine is saying she doesn't want AZ now, only Pfizer.

Can't argue with Stupid I guess

@Waxonwaxoff0 people in the UK have died after the vaccine BUT that doesn't mean because of the vaccine. The EU countries (also Thailand, DRC..) haven't said they have died because of the vaccine either. The difference seems to be that they seem to have suspended while they investigate/until they've investigated, whereas the uk investigated alongside the rollout.

From gov. Uk

The MHRA has received 227 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 275 reports for the Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccine and 4 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified. The majority of these reports were in elderly people or people with underlying illness. Usage of the AstraZeneca has increased rapidly and as such, so has reporting of fatal events with a temporal association with vaccination however, this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccine played a role in the death.

Don;t you think it is sensible to temporarily suspend if there are concerns over safety? If it comes to nothing then fine, but no need to keep rushing it out under these circumstances.

What is stupid and reckless is rushing full steam ahead into pushing something when there are question marks over its safety.

@RedcurrantPuff

YANBU. I am so angry about it.

Not being funny but even if - IF - it causes blood clots in minute numbers why would that be a reason to stop it? Stick it on the vaccine insert as a possible side effect and be done with it 🤷🏼‍♀️

17 million doses and less than 40 incidents of people having clots. No evidence of the vaccine causing them. But even if there was how many people of that 17m could have been hospitalised or died of Covid? Thousands presumably.

Yes and more people have died from blood clots after taking the Pfizer vaccine than the Astra Zeneca one anyway.

Plus more people have died from blood clots who are unvaccinated just because that is a condition that people do die from unfortunately

There's plenty of fuckwittery to go around (late lockdon ring any bells) and what looks like fuckwittery from one side of the Channel might be national politicians having to cater for and influence local sentiment, perhaps sentiment that has resulted from prior events in that country.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/europes-caution-over-oxford-vaccine-about-more-than-the-science

I don’t know. The numbers are incredibly low.

But some of those affected are young healthcare workers so I can see merit in pausing to check underlying risk factors - or if they even already had covid.

I believe caution and full disclosure is the only way to build trust to ensure as many choose vaccination as possible

@SoCrimeaRiver

I'm stunned at this. These are countries facing 3rd lockdowns and who feel now is the ideal time to suspend use of a vaccine which could prevent this because of the occurence of a lower level of bllod clots that is found in the "control" population at large. I suspect overseas holidays will be impacted, for those whose booked to go, if countries are still seeing the knock on effect of this come July / August. I've always been a strong remainer but sheesh, they've made an absolute balls up of this vaccination roll-out.

This is going to sound really harsh as I'm aware some uk residents want go abroad. But eu countries been quick to ban British. Maybe if we do open up international travel it should only be to countries with low rates and reached certain vaccination percentage yes be damaging to tourism in some countries yes but its more logical than withdrawing the vaccines from current countries struggling. Really feel for Northern Ireland in this as roi has massive effect on their success.

Given the WHO, EMA & overwhelmingly the scientific community are saying there is no reason to suspend use of the vaccine, the stats show the incidence is less than expected anyway, and no different to Pfizer it is hard not to draw the conclusion that something else other than ‘the science’ is at play here. Be that domestic or other politics, or something else, the knock on effect on vaccine take up is a big worry at this point.

YANBU It's political, especially in France where the public have already been kicking off for weeks about the safety of ANY of the vaccines.

@FatCatThinCat Yep, we have decided to suspend using a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic just to piss off the UK

No, not to piss off the Uk but from sheer ignorance dressed up as caution. There is no evidence the vaccine causes blood clots. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.

Whoosh, there it goes over the top of your head. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@FatCatThinCat

It not about politics. It's about healthy people dying after having the vaccine. I'm pleased my country have suspended using it pending further investigation. Ignoring the deaths and ploughing on regardless is reckless.

It's 37 out of 17 million. The EU are t banning people from going in cars or riding motorbikes which are way more dangerous.

I'm angry about it too. While I'm pleased the UK is pressing on, there were a few people on my facebook last night with the predictable 'oh no I've had AZ should I be worried' comments and it will likely increase vaccine hesitancy, especially in Europe but also in the UK and worldwide.
I'm pleased that the UK are in a better place right now virus-wise but frankly unless the rest of Europe (then the world) can sort itself out this thing is just going to drag on and on. We're not safe until everyone's safe.
Even if there was proven to be a tiny increase in risk (which there isn''t) it's still clear to me that the positives outweigh the negatives. Someone on another thread posted a useful quote earlier - something like every 100,000 people vaccinated tomorrow will result in 74 fewer covid deaths in the long term (I assume this is taking into account people spreading it etc). When you think of countries halting vaccines for a fortnight that really is a lot of dead people.

Their whole handling of vaccination full stop has been shambolic. As much as it pains me to admit it, the government are doing an excellent job on the vaccination front - it’s actually saved Boris’ bacon given the total mess than was last year.

With millions of people being vaccinated there may be some with underlying conditions they know nothing about. Some of these people may have even been covid positive when they had the jab. Time will tell with their investigations but the positives right now outweigh the risk and it’s going to cost more lives.

@FatCatThinCat

Who has died as a direct result from the vaccine?

There have now been several deaths due to blood clots shortly after vaccination. Italy has launched a manslaughter investigation following the death of a teacher after vaccination.

And how many will die of covid in the meantime when they could have been protected by a vaccine?

@en0la it's not 37 deaths. It's
37 cases of clotting. Which is a lower incidence rate than in the general population. And Pfizer has the same incidence. As a comparison, the % of people getting clots from the contraceptive pill is much higher.
If don't want jab then jog on, there's a long q behind you of people waiting. Had mine yesterday and all I feel is relief.
Oxford jab is the only one being sold at cost (EU still tried to negotiate them down). It has already saved many lives (look at our deaths in over 80s and the fact that health care workers no longer getting sick at huge rate).