To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

Covid can cause even worse clotting problems!

Italy have at least been honest and admitted it was a political decision. Tomorrow we can expect the AZ vaccine to be restarted.

It is completely shocking that such countries, considered sensible and democratic can play political games at the expense of the lives of their own people.

Shocking and appalling.

There has been lots of political gambling in the UK too - look at the deaths caused directly by Christmas mixing for example.

There are lots of examples of politics being put above public health by the British government.

Eat out to help out. Opening pubs before schools. Christmas mixing. Cheltenham. Etc

I don’t know about anywhere else but the pandemic has been very well managed in Denmark and this was not done for political gain. The scientists may have said to politicians ‘the public need reassurance, so we’ll pause’ or ‘there may be a link between these two cases and a dodgy batch of vaccine’. They may also have said ‘our case number are low, r rate below 1 and positivity rate below 0.3, so this won’t make any difference to the spread of COVID at this point. We have the wriggle room to make this decision without impacting public health’. This may not apply to France or Italy, but it does here, in the Eu. They are separate sovereign countries and make separate decisions to benefit their public without consulting or considering each other, as the voting public want and expect.

Denmark had been in lockdown with shut borders for 3 days when Cheltenham happened and Johnson was talking about singing happy birthday when washing his hands. He had access to the same science and data, maybe better given the U.K. science superiority. It’s unforgivable. But yeah, pausing a vaccine to double check a batch is appalling 🤨

new I think different countries did it for different reasons.

Denmark did it of its own accord (before Norway) because of a situation in your company. Many experts could argue it was wrong decision, you could possible even argue it was made because of the reputation of AZ, but it was done at a national level.

You say the level of trust of regulators is strong in Denmark so probably not a dangerous decision because as you say people will be OK to get the vaccine when it restarts. (In the UK we also trust our regulators).

Many Irish people believe it was a political decision there, but was not part if a coordinated decision. The timing did seem to have an impact on the reporting of some other stories. There are no instances in Ireland.

Germany found some cases when it went hunting.

Germany, France, Spain & Italy Health Ministers all had a discussion before they made their move. To me this doesn't really sound like national regulators making the decisions. And it does seem to be political.

I don't think any of these countries will find it as easy to restart their vaccine campaign with AZ. They have got a mountain to climb and its a mountain of their own making.

The impact these actions by the EU is having on attitudes against this and other vaccines in the developing world should not be underestimated. Sad especially because AZ is one of the few that's best for conditions in some of our countries. But now people are saying oh doesn't work on old people, kills people etc. And although such rumours were there before people are not citing EU actions as evidence. Am all for more investigations into these new vaccines but the decisions should be by scientific/, medical community not politicians.
Well I hope the EU disbands it's medicines agency since they deem the expertise of politicians in the matter to be superior to that of agency scientists

Australia is sending vaccines to ppng and asked the eu for vaccines to help the Islands that are struggling with high cases.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-56424306

Whats the mechanism when deciding to ban vaccines exports that the 3rd country is worthy enough to receive them?
Is it economic so only 3rd world developing countries?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-56424306

Germany, France, Spain & Italy Health Ministers all had a discussion before they made their move. To me this doesn't really sound like national regulators making the decisions. And it does seem to be political

How is it political? that implies gain, usually in terms of popularity, i could understand an incompetence argument.

'Regulators tell their govts what they will advise ahead of any announcement... sounds exactly what they should be doing.

Would you expect the MHRA to not give Hancock the heads up if an issue was found with a vaccine in the UK ?

Interesting discussion on times radio with a french minister basically and unbelievably blaming the french people for their distrust of the vaccine. Presenter did push back as in yes well that is because of macron and what the french government says. She then mentioned the precautionary principle which again is an explanation in a country with no Covid circulating like say Australia ( who aren’t saying this) but is not the greatest argument in Europe with rising cases
An Irish scientist was also in and his argument seemed to be well we don’t have much AZ in Ireland anyway so it’ll hardly delay us. Presenter pushed back with well what about sowing the seeds of distrust in the population so they won’t want it. He could only agree to that

Well I hope the EU disbands it's medicines agency since they deem the expertise of politicians in the matter to be superior to that of agency scientists

So what's your opinion of the continued existence of the likes of SAGE in the UK given Mr Johnson seems to have ignored a lot of expert advice when it came to the timing of lockdown 1, and politics (economics) certainly played a part in "Eat out to help out" ?

Unless you give medics a free hand to run a country politics/PR/economics will always come into play....."Following the science" doesn't mean it's the only factor that the politicians have to consider in their decision making.

JCVI expert saying not logical to pause following data, Professor Jeremy Brown

Will / could have impact here too as more people get worried

Personally I don’t think it’ll have a significant impact here. I was talking to a fair few parents all doing testing at my kids school yesterday, all over 50 and due vaccines this week incidentally and all keen to go. General consensus was political move by EU. One women not heard about it at all.

Sasha I’m inclined to think the same as you. I hope so in any case.

jasjas in your head it may not be political.

To other people, including the head if the Italian equivalent of MHRA it was political. There have been claims in France it was political too.

But no, it's not been a political decision..........

@MarshaBradyo

JCVI expert saying not logical to pause following data, Professor Jeremy Brown

Will / could have impact here too as more people get worried

People are rightly distrusting of govt's but if regulators didn't pause vaccinations and the 'press get hold of blood clotting issues seemingly linked to AZ, what does that cause....... even more distrust.

Remember AZ trials were paused a few times due to potential problems.

In a vaccine that hasn't had the benefit of long term trials, a more cautious approach, surely, has to be taken?

@Wakeupin2022

jasjas in your head it may not be political.

To other people, including the head if the Italian equivalent of MHRA it was political. There have been claims in France it was political too.

But no, it's not been a political decision..........

Lol and in your head its political... whatever that means to you.

I'll ask again.... To what gain? what does Merkel or Macron get by stopping AZ for a few days?

Nothing at all, other than delaying their vaccine rollouts even further, causing more death and economic harm.

As said, make the incompetence argument? i can see that.

Jasjas I think it was because he said the numbers meant it wasn’t logical decision that seems at odds with what we’d expect. But maybe a different approach by each country.

Also mentioned that many would get sick or worse due to pause. I doubt he’s political but maybe there is no slowing in countries with the pause due to other supply. Overall it wasn’t a positive overview

People are rightly distrusting of govt's but if regulators didn't pause vaccinations and the 'press get hold of blood clotting issues seemingly linked to AZ, what does that cause....... even more distrust
I agree - and you could also argue doing the opposite and allowing it to go ahead would be a "political" decision too.

An example of French reporting: "Despite the promotion made by Olivier Véran , the criticisms are numerous and have become more serious in recent days. On March 8, Norway announced the death by brain hemorrhage of a caregiver under 50 who had received an injection"* - it is not surprising that there is a pause, because of this, there is a conflict between this and the benefits of the vaccine on the face of it.

Article continues: "If the link between the two has not been established at this stage, Norway suspended vaccinations with AstraZeneca on March 11, " as a precaution.". Other countries have taken the same decision: Bulgaria, Ireland or even Norway, the Netherlands and Germany on March 15. The Paul-Ehrlich medical institute, which advises the German government, has noted cases of blood clots forming in people vaccinated in Europe and indicated that " further tests [are] necessary "

The suspension of vaccinations in the German neighbor has logically raised serious questions in France. In Montauban for the 26th Franco-Spanish summit, Emmanuel Macron addressed the subject during his press conference . Invited to react to the decisions of other European countries, the president said: " You are right to recall that several European partners have decided to suspend the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine ," he began. The European authority, the EMA (the European Medicines Agency, editor's note), will issue an opinion tomorrow afternoon on the use of this vaccine."

After an exchange with Olivier Véran, Emmanuel Macron decided to follow the movement : “ On the recommendation of the Minister of Health in conjunction with the French health authorities, […] the decision that was taken, in accordance with our European policy, is to suspend collaboration with AstraZeneca as a precaution. Hoping to resume it quickly if the opinion of the EMA allows it , he said. We have a simple guide: be enlightened by science and the competent health authorities, and do it within the framework of a European strategy. So we are suspending until tomorrow afternoon. »European governments are now awaiting results whether or not to resume vaccination with AstraZeneca

the confusion in the last paragraph is that it refers to going ahead when the EMA allow it, yet the EMA are saying on their website they do allow it but this seems to illustrate that the intention is that decisions are made when the EMA concludes its investigation and that doesn't strike me to be political in the way suggested here. I might be wrong. But most of these EU countries have followed science throughout - for example, introducing obligatory face masks in public areas near the beginning.

It is literally not a move by the Eu because the Eu hasn’t moved! It’s individual countries that have changed, some have obviously coordinated some not. Some for political reason, some not. I don’t know what the fuss is all about. I don’t think it will effect vaccine rates worldwide because, for a least a few years, supply will be the bottleneck.

I'll ask again.... To what gain? what does Merkel or Macron get by stopping AZ for a few days?

Just because we can't see a political gain does not mean it wasn't a decision made for political reasons. Macron and politicians/ media in Germany have not made sensible statements already re AZ vaccines. Merkel didn't really help when she said she wouldn't take the vaccine because she was over 65. If course she was correct in what she said as it was not licensed for her to get it at that time but the optics are not great.

I think those 2 countries will suffer the most as a result of these 'pauses'.

It is not fair to make this a clear choice - safe v political. At one extreme no one would leave houses every again as clearly even in non covid times that reduces car accidents and stops other diseases spreading. Our rights and freedoms to go out are just as important in the mix as what it the very safest advice in terms of spread of diseases and personal risks.

@fernom

.....the confusion in the last paragraph is that it refers to going ahead when the EMA allow it, yet the EMA are saying on their website they do allow it but this seems to illustrate that the intention is that decisions are made when the EMA concludes its investigation and that doesn't strike me to be political in the way suggested here. I might be wrong. But most of these EU countries have followed science throughout - for example, introducing obligatory face masks in public areas near the beginning.

Many thanks for that (the whole article).

The idea that you can de-clutch "politics", in the broad sense of the word, from decision making over national healthcare policy is naive to say the least.

It certainly hasn't happened in either the UK or European nations.

Why do people keep saying Eat out to help out was a bad thing.

We ate out a lot during that period and The pubs and restaurants we used were incredibly safe with how far away tables were, the ordering process and even using the loo there were one way systems in place

I really can’t see how you could blame the hospitality sector when there were no rises in rates in mid August to early to mid September and it was not until later in September after the schools went back that problems started

I don’t know what the fuss is all about.

Agreed. My best guess at understanding this situation, is that it's a big deal to people who care about the Oxford vaccine -- clue in the name, it's part of UK identity in covid response. So insulting the vaccine becomes an insult to UK. Only if you're of a mindset to see things that way.