To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

Thanks for the correction.

If no one got blood clots after having the vaccine, the vaccine would be a cure for blood clots.

YANBU, the politicising of the vaccine is getting dangerous

[quote annonnymous]**@FatCatThinCat* Yep, we have decided to suspend using a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic just to piss off the UK*

No, not to piss off the Uk but from sheer ignorance dressed up as caution. There is no evidence the vaccine causes blood clots. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.

Whoosh, there it goes over the top of your head. 🤷🏻‍♀️[/quote]
Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. Which is why it's being investigated.

And there's no need to be so rude. Is your national identity so fragile that you need to insult foreigners whose countries make different decisions to yours?

[quote annonnymous]**@FatCatThinCat* Yep, we have decided to suspend using a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic just to piss off the UK*

No, not to piss off the Uk but from sheer ignorance dressed up as caution. There is no evidence the vaccine causes blood clots. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.

Whoosh, there it goes over the top of your head. 🤷🏻‍♀️[/quote]
The 60yr old in Denmark died around the same time as the death in Norway. The degree of damage in the body was far beyond what they are used to seeing in deaths of that nature and was classed as "highly unusual' It was within days of taking a very new drug. Therefore Denmark decided to investigate as a cautionary measure. Our health authorities have done a good job through this pandemic and we trust them that this warrants investigation, whilst fully expecting

Since AZ (even when they do deliver) make up a small part of our vaccine plan it isn't significantly slowing us down at this point and we have the capacity to use the stored shots quickly and catch up if (when) the investigation is complete.

The attitude to science here is that it would harm vaccine confidence more if a tabloid got wind of the death and it hadn't been investigated.

The deaths after Pfizer haven't shown this level of symptoms, by the way.

I would happily get the AZ jab today, for what it's worth, but I respect what our health authorities are doing.

Denmark has a lot of trust in its health authority and is pro-vaccine as a whole.

Suspending use of the AZ vaccine pending further investigation is welcomed. There is no drama about the situation and vaccinations are still being rolled out, just a different brand.

The drama really seems to be British media stirring up offense and using sweeping anti-EU generalisations.

Given the huge number of AZ doses administered in the UK, you would expect some side effects to be being reported. I know some could argue a government cover up, we’re so proud of this vaccine that we’ll push it at any cost but realistically the government can’t cover up the number of people who would be sick in the UK if blood clots were a major issue.

The more likely scenarios are that either this is a particular batch that is causing these adverse effects or it’s politically motivated. If it’s a bad batch, then this should be investigated and AZ (or their manufacturers) should put steps in place to ensure future batches are to the same higher standard. If this is politically motivated, and it looks like that way but I sincerely hope it’s not, then that will cost lives and those governments should absolutely be ashamed of themselves.

My in-laws live in Europe and we spoke to them at weekend. Their cases are rising again to scary levels. They still have a lot of restrictions in place and are expecting more to come back in. My FIL has a number of health conditions and if in the UK he’d have been vaccinated already. From what they’ve said, there’s a lot of anger at the European Commission (at least in pro vaccination countries) in their handling of this.

@en0la knew that's what you meant 😊. But someone would latch onto it and start claiming 37 people have died. There is a lot of stupid about at moment 🤷‍♀️

@NewLevelsOfTiredness said it better!

It does seem premature IMO to completely halt vaccinating with AZ, in light of the small numbers of affected persons. I don't think countries are stupid for investigating, but with the small numbers it seems quite clear that even if it is a direct result of AZ vaccine (and if so, it also would suggest its a side effect of Pfizer too as they have seen similar numbers) the benefits still outweigh the risks. Covid itself increases risk of blood clots by a higher factor, for example ... along with the many other unpleasant and dangerous risks to other organs and systems of the body. The longer it takes countries to carry out their mass vaccination program, the more people will become unwell and/or die of Covid itself. It doesn't seem like this balance has been properly assessed here when making the decision.

On the other hand, I'm aware (anecdotally) that EU countries are typically more hesitant to vaccines than Britain so we need to remember that the populations of such countries are likely to require more visibility of thorough investigations than Britain (i.e. it might take more to alleviate their concerns when compared to the average Brit).

I'd question though why suspension of AZ alone, when Pfizer has seem similar associations?

@lumene
If no one got blood clots after having the vaccine, the vaccine would be a cure for blood clots.

That is a very good point 😀

The drama really seems to be British media stirring up offense and using sweeping anti-EU generalisations.

100% and not just the media. It's the same old anti EU posters popping up here as on every other anti EU thread.

@dividedwefall

Don;t you think it is sensible to temporarily suspend if there are concerns over safety? If it comes to nothing then fine, but no need to keep rushing it out under these circumstances.

What is stupid and reckless is rushing full steam ahead into pushing something when there are question marks over its safety.

Depends on the situation. If it were, say, a new brand of contraceptive pill (a drug known to cause clots) then absolutely yes, because there are plenty of alternatives, so delaying it's use for a few weeks is neither here nor there.

Right now, you're trading off the risks of continuing to use it (which, even if all the clots are caused by the vaccine, remains very low) against the risk of continuing covid deaths due to delaying vaccination.

By any measure the harm caused by the latter is very much higher.

I think the OP is right. I fall into the age group of ‘most likely only just a cold’ and I am extremely put off by all the news. I would consider having Pfizer I’d offered but I don’t think I’d elect to have the AZ.

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine

And what the fuck do you know about it? The experts in these matters all over Europe agree that its the right thing to do. Why would anyone listen to some mad angry woman on MN rather than them?

@FatCatThinCat

The drama really seems to be British media stirring up offense and using sweeping anti-EU generalisations.

100% and not just the media. It's the same old anti EU posters popping up here as on every other anti EU thread.

Quite, conveniently ignoring Indonesia, Thailand and the Democratic of Congo having suspended it too.

@dividedwefall

Don;t you think it is sensible to temporarily suspend if there are concerns over safety? If it comes to nothing then fine, but no need to keep rushing it out under these circumstances.

What is stupid and reckless is rushing full steam ahead into pushing something when there are question marks over its safety.

Nope. Because suspending a vaccination programme for one which has been shown to be highly effective in reducing transmission and illness isn't a neutral act. The suspension itself will cause more than forty deaths I expect - who will investigate those?

There were a lot of struggles in Europe regarding AZ uptake BEFORE the whole blood clot issue started. The problem is that many people lost faith in the government due to their handling of the second wave in winter. I'm writing from Austria but I imagine it's more or less the same everywhere. It wasn't just the toll of sickness and death but how the constant lockdowns wreaked havoc with businesses. People realised the government just didn't give a shit about livelihoods. The financial aid offered was a joke and many small businesses didn't qualify due to technicalities such as not having been in business during the same time the previous year. Even "covid safe" businesses such as doctors & dentists were left to flounder in mounting regulations regarding PPE, safety testing for staff, for patients, rules that keep changing every 2 weeks.

So obviously, people were not reassured that the government had their best interests at heart when it came to vaccine program. The vaccine costs were publicised by the media sometime in winter and it showed that Pfizer/Moderna cost €10 per dose whereas AZ was only €1. This caused uproar since people assumed the government simply wanted to cut costs by getting the cheaper vaccine. This sentiment was strengthened by the rise of mutant strains (to which Pfizer was shown to be more effective), a sudden third lockdown lasting from Christmas to almost Easter and the recommendation that AZ should not be used over 65. The slow start of the program also led to frustration and the perception that Pfizer was the "luxury" vaccine used on high-risk groups and doctors, whereas AZ was "junk" saved for the rest of the population. To be honest, the blood clotting issue was just the final nail in the coffin.

The Austria chancellor Kurz has said a few days ago that he's going to get vaccinated with AZ himself. So if it's political, Austria seems to be surprisingly pro AZ or pro Britain, considering the first case of abnormal clotting death occurred here.

I wonder whether there has been a case of some ing having the AZ vaccine and then winning the lottery?if so that might focus minds and they'll all be queueing up.

It’s all bloody politics. I think it’s because they haven’t got the vaccines they need. They’re stalling to build up stocks.

Nope. Because suspending a vaccination programme for one which has been shown to be highly effective in reducing transmission and illness isn't a neutral act. The suspension itself will cause more than forty deaths I expect - who will investigate those?

Exactly this

I’ll be honest I haven’t looked up whether there are any figures on this, but given our roll out if way more advanced than the EU’s, you would expect there to be multiple reports of blood clot deaths following the AZ vaccine in the UK if there was and link or correlation. I haven’t seen any such reports.

I heard the EU are meeting on Thursday to discuss it. THURSDAY! Nearly a weeks wait before they even get their beaurocratic arises in gear enough to have a talk about it.

Even after they talk about it they'll need to go through their disagreeing about the decision, arguing a bit, changing their mind, finally making a decision and arranging another meeting in another week's time to talk about it a bit more, processes.

If the UK Government was bumbling along like that there would be outrage. Thank God we are in a position to just get on with saving lives.

@IkkeMig

Denmark has a lot of trust in its health authority and is pro-vaccine as a whole.

Suspending use of the AZ vaccine pending further investigation is welcomed. There is no drama about the situation and vaccinations are still being rolled out, just a different brand.

The drama really seems to be British media stirring up offense and using sweeping anti-EU generalisations.

This sounds pretty accurate to me. As someone else pointed out, Spain is desperate to get its tourists back, it has no interest in cutting its nose off to spite its face for the sake of irritating Britain.

The whole thing is very odd and while politics definitely has a role in everything these days, I find it hard to believe that these countries, suffering a financial maelstrom due to the pandemic and in serious need of getting back to some kind of normal, would jeopardise that just to annoy the UK. It's just not realistic, no matter how cynical one is. I'm not going to say I know better than anyone else what's going on but I have to assume the top scientists of some of the most developed countries in the world have good reasons to disrupt, if only temporarily, the vaccine process.

@annonnymous Can you guarantee you know better than them?

Finally a sensible post from @NewLevelsOfTiredness! The type of reaction is not just a blood clot, it is a more involved systemic type reaction. It would be irresponsible to plough on regardless. The assessment is being done in a very timely manner, and all signs point to AZ being given the green light to continue. A week will have been lost here in Ireland for example. We can catch up. And Ireland is not a vaccine sceptic type country as suggested by some posters as one of the political motivations for this, we are crying out for them because the roll out is so slow.