What happens about the unvaccinated ?

[vera99]

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

[quote Thegentleman]@Globaliser you said "On the one hand, I can point to the extensive research carried out by the best universities and pharmaceutical companies"
I am not sure if you are aware all the large drug companies have been prosecuted and fined multiple times over recent years. And these are what the companies have actually been caught doing, a lot they get away with or buy their way out of.
Including the big 2 drug companies that are kindly making the vaccine for us right now.
So these are convicted criminal organisations and you are really taking there advice seriously.
Also with university studies you often only need to look at the sponsors, and that says it all.
If you want links to the criminal offences I will post several sources. I am sure you can find them though, here is a couple of cases and there is plenty more.
www.reuters.com/article/us-pfizer-settlement-idUSTRE5813XB20090902
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3767504/AstraZeneca-fined-4m-backhanders-doctors-set-bogus-conferences-supplied-fake-travel-invoices-handed-gifts-hospitals.html
www.reuters.com/article/us-astrazeneca-texas-lawsuits-idUSKBN1KT0Q9

If you want to take advice from criminals you do so but don't call others for being wary about convicted criminal organisations.
I am sure if a neighbour had their track record for crime and fraud you would not take a drug off them.[/quote]
their advice

“It is not certain that everyone who has contracted COVID receives immunity, and it is not known how long the immunity that is produced will last.”

Have you read any studies on this? The majority of people who have recovered have immunity for 6-8+ months. We know more about how long immunity lasts after infection than we do about vaccine induced immunity at the moment.

You’re also making a few straw man arguments there but I’m sure you know that already.

@bumbleymummy

“It is not certain that everyone who has contracted COVID receives immunity, and it is not known how long the immunity that is produced will last.”

Have you read any studies on this? The majority of people who have recovered have immunity for 6-8+ months. We know more about how long immunity lasts after infection than we do about vaccine induced immunity at the moment.

You’re also making a few straw man arguments there but I’m sure you know that already.

I agree entirely that most people who contract COVID develop immunity for at least to 6-8 months, and I’m sorry if I appeared to suggest otherwise, however no credible person is suggesting that you should not take the vaccine because you have already developed antibodies. That is an antivax sleight of hand, together with “genuine concerns” or “not being high risk”.

I bet @globaliser is fun at parties .

Ad hominem attacks are the preserve of the verbose yet intellectually vacant. You can call people stupid on this thread but the best arguments you have are that 'clever people are telling me something is true so it must be, and if you don't believe it too you are an anti-vax thicko'.

You appear to lack critical thinking skills, the ability to see other arguments, a borderline scary deference to those in positions of power and influence and absolutely no understanding or knowledge of history. I can tell you've had an education from the way you write, but there is no evidence of it in the substance of what you say.

Do what makes you happy, but save the personal attacks because they undermine your (paper thin) arguments and reasoning.

@Thegentleman

I am sorry for my grammar *@Globaliser* 😉 I am probably not as articulate as you, but you do associate with some people very high up the social economic ladder. You did name drop people you know and your neigbours are doctors, scientists, lawyers etc. I am not they fortunate to be up there I just happen to work with doctors due to my career. A lot of my friends and neighbours are not in these professions. You never replied before, thousands of healthcare staff including nurses, doctors and doctors have not had their vaccination due to choice. This is even higher in the US. Do you believe all these people are stupid and uneducated ?

Don't worry about it @Thegentleman. Globaliser missed out a word on another thread they are on so even arrogant know-it-alls make the odd mistake too.

I love when people start attacking the person instead of the argument, it means they can't be taken seriously.

@Globaliser I think that’s more of a logistics decision. It’s easier to invite everyone in a particular group for a vaccine rather than determine who is immune after previous infection - particularly when so many are asymptomatic. It doesn’t mean that natural immunity is inferior.

Certain groups are ‘high risk’ compared to others. That’s why they have been prioritised for vaccination. It’s not anti-vaxx to point this out. I think uptake of vaccination will reduce as it is rolled out to lower risk groups.

The majority of people who have recovered have immunity for 6-8+ months

I think it is longer than that.
I know dd had it in December 2019 and was still immune in February 2021

It is still recommended that you have the vaccine if you have had Covid.

@Bythemillpond

The majority of people who have recovered have immunity for 6-8+ months

I think it is longer than that.
I know dd had it in December 2019 and was still immune in February 2021

How are you able to tell please?

I looked up getting an antibody test, and I dont think I can have one as I dont work for eg the health service.

@Bythemillpond

The majority of people who have recovered have immunity for 6-8+ months

I think it is longer than that.
I know dd had it in December 2019 and was still immune in February 2021

Yes, it’s expected to last longer - that’s why it’s 8+ . 8 months was just the max time in the data at the time.

Parker, there were recent studies showing that people who recovered from infection mounted a much bigger immune response to a single dose of the vaccine than people without previous infection after their second dose. I think it really does come down to logistics.

Vaccines are believed to induce stronger and longer lasting immunity than that from having Covid. They’re also a lot safer than waiting to catch the virus for the first time – or waiting to catch it again, as we don’t know how common reinfections are.

Vaccines are believed to induce stronger and longer lasting immunity than that from having Covid.

Believed? Do you have any studies that show that? We currently know more about the persistence of immunity after natural infection than after vaccines.

Data shows that reinfection is quite rare.

Re it being ‘safer’. If someone has immunity after recovering from infection then they have already been exposed to those risks.

I’m not saying everyone should just wait around to contract the virus, btw. Just questioning the idea that natural immunity isn’t ‘good enough’.

There are studies in the US being undertaken regarding the strength of the vaccines and we can already see the benefits in the U.K. as the numbers of people being vaccinated, the numbers of cases and deaths are decreasing.

IMO everyone should take the vaccination as soon as they are offered it and I’ll never understand those refusing (other than by medical advice). However I’m not being rude as are some from both sides on this thread.

@Parker231

There are studies in the US being undertaken regarding the strength of the vaccines and we can already see the benefits in the U.K. as the numbers of people being vaccinated, the numbers of cases and deaths are decreasing.

IMO everyone should take the vaccination as soon as they are offered it and I’ll never understand those refusing (other than by medical advice). However I’m not being rude as are some from both sides on this thread.

the usa studies have been published today and said AZ Is safe www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56479462

Yes, I know studies are being undertaken. Of course it makes sense for people to be vaccinated - if that’s what they want. I just don’t think that natural immunity after recovery should be presented as ‘inferior’ at the moment when actually we know more about it than we do about vaccine induced immunity and all evidence to date has shown that it’s actually very effective - at preventing further infection, and transmission (see earlier link).

The fact that so many people have recovered after infection - including children - and are now contributing to herd immunity as well as our high level of vaccine uptake is a good thing. We don’t have to think of this as one vs the other.

The important thing is protecting people’s choice.

Vaccine passports will remove that choice.

In the words of the OP (who did a dump and run and clearly had not intention of a discussion) The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well

reform - I’m 100% in favour of vaccine passports as I want to travel to see family safely and countries can insist of conditions before entry. (It’s not the reason had the vaccine).

Parker23

Why are you in favour of forced/coerced medical treatment, a protection that has long been established?

I have an issue with vaccine passports if they only allow people who have been vaccinated to travel rather than actually considering whether a person is immune or not.

They are unethical which is why this government persistently denied they were under consideration.

Maybe medical professionals who support these should be identified so that people can choose if they want to be treated by them.

I am not in favour of forced treatment. I have had the vaccine as it will give me (and those I come into contact with) protection of the severity of Covid I could get. If someone else wants to take the risk, that is up to them but definitely not one I’m prepared to take.

Parker231

reform - I’m 100% in favour of vaccine passports

Supporting vaccine passports is indeed supporting forced/coerced medical treatment.