What happens about the unvaccinated ?

[vera99]

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

Thank you for the clarification @reformedcharacters

It's pretty grim this side of the channel and I believe there will be a further announcement re restrictions today. Very glad not to be in Paris.

@XenoBitch

What I strongly object to is the incessant pressure on people to have it who don't want to have it. Nobody is telling YOU not to have it, but you are telling ME I should be having it. That sort of thing.

I have seen several threads, both on this board and AIBU, regarding people who are being bombarded with anti-vaxx rhetoric from friends or relatives. They are told to ignore them, or block them.
Then you have people who have loved ones who do not want the vaccine for whatever reason (and do not convince others not to either), that get told to then bombard them with pro-vaccine stuff and to tell them how selfish they are etc. Also, I was told that GPs will be following up people who have not booked their vaccine. I get that this may be because some people just do not know how to book.... but if someone is adamant they don't want it, it is going to be borderline harassment.

I think if you are contacted by your GP (it probably won’t be your GP it will probably be clerical staff who may not even work in your surgery) just politely say you do not want the vaccine. And just appreciate that nobody is telepathic and it’s impossible to tell whether somebody doesn’t want the vaccine or whether they just can’t book, have changed phone number, letter went astray etc and they are waiting patiently!

I will be getting the vaccine. I am pro-vaccine.

However I strongly believe in the principles of consent and that putting people under undue pressure or coercising them in anyway (including guilt or abuse) undermines public trust in institutions and negates the ability to freely consent.

People have the right (yes right) to be wrong. They should have full control over their body and the right to refuse anything going into it (unless they lack the legal capacity to make decisions for themselves). Even if I disagree with their decision and reasoning.

If we start to undermine this principle we risk lost of trust in healthcare and systems in otherways (and this produces resentment, ill feeling or worse).

I know this might seem stupid but given there are no borders between countries how will Spain stop unvaccinated Brits coming into Spain etc.

Same as with countries requiring a yellow fever vaccination. You have to show your vaccination record with your passport or ID card when you enter the country.

@RedToothBrush

I will be getting the vaccine. I am pro-vaccine.

However I strongly believe in the principles of consent and that putting people under undue pressure or coercising them in anyway (including guilt or abuse) undermines public trust in institutions and negates the ability to freely consent.

People have the right (yes right) to be wrong. They should have full control over their body and the right to refuse anything going into it (unless they lack the legal capacity to make decisions for themselves). Even if I disagree with their decision and reasoning.

If we start to undermine this principle we risk lost of trust in healthcare and systems in otherways (and this produces resentment, ill feeling or worse).

This. Am fed up with lockdown shaming, mask shaming etc, now we have vaccine shaming. People just seem to be getting nasty about anyone who does not agree with them. I have seen some awful fallings out on social media over it, and people refusing to see family members that wont have the vaccine. I met up with a friend recently and she mentioned that her family would not be having the vaccine. I breathed a sigh of relief as I wont be either (although for different reasons). It was so nice to be able to talk about it without being judged, called names, or accused of killing people. I was called a "fucking idiot" by another friend, and my own dad is mentioning not seeing me anymore until I have it (even though he is in my support bubble so I have been seeing him anyway).

There are only a limited number of countries that require proof of yellow fever vaccination which the majority of people will never travel to. Even in some countries where transmission is a risk it is only recommended.

www.passporthealthglobal.com/en-gb/vaccinations/yellow-fever/

@Parker231

It's not the same. Yellow fever is endemic, it is only present in a number of countries in Africa and South America. If you're living in Europe the chances that you're immune to Yellow Fever is probably 0. Besides there's a long list of exemption to this vaccine. The YF vaccine has been in use since 1938 and they still advice you to have RISK ASSESSMENT with your GP or vaccinator, before you can get one. How can you compare that to vaccinating on massive scale with vaccine that's been in use for few months?

I have a yellow fever vaccination card. What countries put in place for entry in respect of Covid is up to each country and for the U.K. to determine whether a quarantine hotel is required in your return.

Have the vaccine or not. Your own private decision. What winds nr up is anti vaxxers constantly commenting on news stories etc trying to put people very often vulnerable people off.

@Northernsoulgirl45

Have the vaccine or not. Your own private decision. What winds nr up is anti vaxxers constantly commenting on news stories etc trying to put people very often vulnerable people off.

And I (as someone who will be declining the vaccine) get wound up by the constant name calling, pressure, blackmailing etc.

My DH doesn't want the vaccine, I've already had the vaccine. I don't tell him he should have it (he has his reasons for not) he doesn't tell me I shouldn't of had it (again I have my own reasons for having it) we both respect each others decision and agree to disagree and move on. It is perfectly possible to be reasonable about other people's personal choices despite the hysteria on here that would probably get the response that I should divorce him
The emotional blackmail to encourage or discourage other people's decisions is abhorrent.

That isn't right either @XenoBitch

Although having said that if you are confident in your decision to decline the vaccine there is no need to discuss it with anyone.

I'm continually astonished by people's attitudes to this issue.

Not being vaccinated is a choice. It doesn't necessarily mean you're an anti vaxxer (the conspiracy/Qanon eejits are likely to represent a minority of those who don't want to be vaccinated), vaccine refuser or 'one of the unvaccinated'.

It can mean that you can't be vaccinated for health reasons (I imagine this is a small but nevertheless still valid group), that your risk of severe covid is extremely small, that your innate immunity is sufficient and/or you already have antibody or t-cell protection from previous infection.

The sanctimonious seem to forget that the vast majority of people will not be hospitalised or die from covid, despite the fact that it's a very nasty novel virus - particularly for the elderly and vulnerable.

Being vaccinated is also a choice, and for many it is a wise one. Being vaccinated does not give you the authority to dictate others' lives or worth, nor can you decree that an unvaccinated person is a threat to you or society - it might be a nice, empowering feeling for you, but it's bollocks on many levels.

The fact that some of you are revelling in the fact that people who don't want (or actually don't need) to be vaccinated will be punished and excluded from society is really disturbing and frankly pathetic. It's also extremely selfish and ignorant because beyond covid (yes, such a concept exists), forcing a medical procedure on people who don't want or need it is massively unethical and puts a supposedly democratic society on a very slippery slope.

And before you jump on this with 'you're selfish and ignorant NOT to be vaccinated', do educate yourself with the facts:

• just because someone doesn't want to be vaccinated doesn't mean they're not accepting of testing, travel restrictions when necessary and social distancing.
• research into and use of therapeutics for severe illness still factor into effective pandemic response.
• there's already a very high uptake of the vaccine (which only reduces but does not prevent transmission); coupled with existing population immunity from active infection, 'the non vaccinated' will not be driving infection surges or mutations - and if they did, you're already vaccinated, and are free to receive updated vaccines. In addition:

-latest research suggests up to 45% of infections are asymptomatic which, while providing one explanation for why covid spreads easily, also means more people have existing antibodies than can be counted. Herd immunity will not simply be driven by the vaccine.

I could go on but it is largely pointless. But please, if you're motivated to decry those who won't be vaccinated, please redirect your energy and venom at the government that underfunded the NHS, royally fucked up this country's pandemic response and is responsible for more deaths than any non-vaccinated citizen could ever be.

@Northernsoulgirl45

Although having said that if you are confident in your decision to decline the vaccine there is no need to discuss it with anyone.

TBH I think this is the thing. Its a private matter. Its your business and your business alone.

The problem is when everyone else thinks its their business to tell others what to do.

Discussions about this should be invited not solicted.

If I were vulnerable and unable to have it and you were unvaccinated, do you not think I ought to know before you are in close contact with me?

Excellent post @EllenRipley
It feels like people have lost all sense of proportion. And totally agree about holding the government accountable rather than blaming each other- the government posters basically insinuating people were risking lives by queueing outside for a coffee made me so angry!

If I could not be vaccinated I would rather run the risk of catching anything rather than ‘live’ in a totalitarian state.

@DenisetheMenace

If I were vulnerable and unable to have it and you were unvaccinated, do you not think I ought to know before you are in close contact with me?

If you were vulnerable I imagine there are at least several infections you'd be at risk of @DenisetheMenace, and with the very greatest respect, if I were to be held wholly responsible at every turn for your risk level, there's no end to where, when and how this kind of thinking would apply. Your responsibility for your own health is greater than mine. It's utterly irrational to think otherwise - where does it end if so? There's no such thing as zero risk in any situation and we're all being encouraged to believe this is the case with a virus.

That said, I am more than happy to social distance, wear masks and take a test while covid is still circulating, and stay home if I'm symptomatic with covid.
My mother has a respiratory disease and it's been common practice in the family for years to avoid her if symptomatic with any kind of virus.

More importantly, presumably you will be vaccinated if vulnerable. And even
the vaccinated can still carry and infect.

@Uselessname
Thankyou, I'm glad I'm not the last sane person living in the twilight zone!
It's criminal the way we have essentially been gaslighted by the government this year. I'm daily 🤯

@Bythemillpond

Im convinced its been in our house too. My twins who are now almost 2 ended up in hospital for a week after being ill with a really really bad cough jan last year that went on for few weeks before going in. Drs were sure it was bronchiolitis. They both had awful sticky red eyes aswell that took ages to clear even with drips, their eyes were shut in the mornings with all the gunk and the snot running out of them was unreal. Never seen the like of it. Awful temps which they found hard to bring down, at one point they were both in the 40s for temp. Drs were worried about another infection creeping in so they sent them for chest xrays, both were clear but they did see slight changes whatever that is and put on antibiotics incase and took nasal secretions to test.
They picked up after that and got home a day or so later and drs could only say it was a 'really nasty virus' .

Snot running from noses not eyes. Just read that and didnt look right lol

Indeed, EllenRipley. My CEV husband and I are vaccinated. Our son, who has been doing his college work from home for a year to protect his dad, isn’t yet but 🤞 for before he begins at university.

However, the vaccine doesn’t work for everyone. The slightest infection, of any description (throat, lung, kidney, blood, you name it) can put my husband in hospital.

For years, because of his rare, life-threatening genetic disorder, we have all been vaccinated, usually privately, for every disease known to man that it is possible to vaccinate against 😁 it has been extremely expensive, I can tell you!
We keep to ourselves. Even before this horrible situation, we didn’t go to crowded places and no-one came into our home if they had the merest hint of anything. Our extended family and close friends have ‘flu jabs every year for him and pneumonia protection. Going back 26 years, if childhood acquaintances weren’t vaccinated, they couldn’t become friends. If we ever need work done at home, we go out while the workman is there and on the odd occasion when that hasn’t been possible I’ve had to explain our situation and most people have been very good and willing to tell us if they’ve had their ‘flu jab. Few people want to make someone ill if they can help it.

When you have a situation like ours, it’s no big deal, becomes a way of life (which is a very happy one).

At some point in the future, we may need careers and I believe we have every right to know that those carers have been vaccinated (and to reject them if they have not).

@DenisetheMenace apologies I misread!
If you were unvaccinated but vulnerable, of course you'd be entitled if you were in close contact. I'd be happy to be asked, and that would be your responsibility to do so (unless you feel I required a red armband or a tattoo or to show you 'my paperwork').

Presumably you would consider this necessary for other viruses. I wouldn't be out in public if I were ill though.

However, you would also be at risk from vaccinated person/s and, to a lesser degree, fomites.