What happens about the unvaccinated ?

[vera99]

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

@DenisetheMenace
Oh gosh, I think my reply is more a response to a theoretical question than your actual situation. You sound both stoic and eminently level headed about it all 💪🏼 I can't imagine how hard this last year has been for you☹️ But I guess it shows that people have to live with a constant level of risk of risk and shielding. I have a friend who's in the same situation with her husband, it's been incredibly hard for her.

@DenisetheMenace
Sorry my son interrupted me there - and yes, for the record, you would and should be entitled to a fully vaccinated carer. I have zero issue with that! If I were a frontline worker I'd be happy to get myself vaccinated. That's a no brainer.
Hope your son gets vaccinated soon 👍
And I appreciate your level-headed response to my rant. My opinions aren't without an understanding that others are in very different situations, and ones for which the vaccine is a godsend.

@EllenRipley big round of applause for your post (and your username )

@XenoBitch Thankyou, I'm heartened that a few people agree...

Seek me out on LV426, Weyland Yutani exile colony for the unvaccinated... we'll do tequila shots til the marines arrive 😆

Today 21:58 XenoBitch

@EllenRipley big round of applause for your post (and your username wink)

Ditto. Wish I’d thought of that Username first (would say “you bitch, but won’t 😁)

@Bythemillpond

I know this might seem stupid but given there are no borders between countries how will Spain stop unvaccinated Brits coming into Spain etc.

@Bythemillpond have you heard of Brexit? And vaccine passports?

EllenRipley if you're driving though?
Assuming you're allowed into France nothing is checked from that point on.

@Wellbythebloodyhell My DH doesnt want it. I will be having it when its my turn. DH is 71 and im almost 48 though so it will have to wait.

EllenRipley

Bythemillpond
I know this might seem stupid but given there are no borders between countries how will Spain stop unvaccinated Brits coming into Spain etc

Bythemillpond have you heard of Brexit? And vaccine passports

But France are saying you only have to have a negative Covid test. Then you can go anywhere in Europe and there isn’t anything to stop you
Spain might demand a vaccine passport for those coming in directly to Spain via plane or boat but by car the only reason you know that you have passed from France in to Spain is because toilets in Service stations in France have no toilet seats.

Don’t know what Brexit has got to do with anything

@lightand

Yes. I am hoping the immunity lasts a life time!

I am quoting myself but hey ho!

I didnt catch all of what he said, but Sen Rand Paul in the US yesterday, said something about that this was true[except for all of about 5 people in the US so far, I think this is what he was saying].
And that studies say so that covid immunity lasts a lifetime.

I was hoping to see reports on google today about this, but cant find what I am looking for.
Anyone else know anything or seen anything?

This is all I can find:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.courier-journal.com/amp/4752513001

Fauci did acknowledge that immunity after infection lasts at least 6+ months but I don’t think we can say it lasts a lifetime yet. There are definitely some positive findings from recent studies though. Let’s hope it is the case.

Ah, thanks. That is what I was looking for.
I will have a better read later in the day when I have more time.

But France are saying you only have to have a negative Covid test. Then you can go anywhere in Europe and there isn’t anything to stop you

Don't be absurd.

I am in France - I can't just go anywhere in Europe as all the countries have their own specific regulations. Or shall I tell my grandchildren that I will be with them tomorrow because someone on MN says I can go anywhere in Europe?

the only reason you know that you have passed from France in to Spain is because toilets in Service stations in France have no toilet seats

Or possibly by having to provide the correct documentation to the people at the border.

Are you aware that in many parts of Spain it is not permitted to leave your region, let alone the country. We have friends in Spain. They will be thrilled if we say it is OK just to drive down and see them - oh, except we would not be allowed to enter Spain and even if we were, we would not be allowed inside their home.

EllenRipley - great post 20.10 last night.

FoonySpucker

This is about later in the year not now.

the only reason you know that you have passed from France in to Spain is because toilets in Service stations in France have no toilet seats

Or possibly by having to provide the correct documentation to the people at the border

Genuinely what border? There is no border.

You might be in France but have you ever driven to Spain or any EU country. There are no borders. No one to give documents to.

You might be in France but have you ever driven to Spain or any EU country. There are no borders. No one to give documents to

Have you driven to Spain since the pandemic began?

@vera99

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

I know loads of people who aren’t having it

@RedToothBrush

I will be getting the vaccine. I am pro-vaccine.

However I strongly believe in the principles of consent and that putting people under undue pressure or coercising them in anyway (including guilt or abuse) undermines public trust in institutions and negates the ability to freely consent.

People have the right (yes right) to be wrong. They should have full control over their body and the right to refuse anything going into it (unless they lack the legal capacity to make decisions for themselves). Even if I disagree with their decision and reasoning.

If we start to undermine this principle we risk lost of trust in healthcare and systems in otherways (and this produces resentment, ill feeling or worse).

Quite agree. My surgery rang me the other day and I said I’m still researching it. I understand all the vaccines are currently on trial till 2023 and in the light of the bad press about them and my underlying health conditions I prefer to postpone it until I’m assured It will be safe for me to have it..and my dh said the same. That was it and there was no pressure..as there shouldn’t be.

Pressed post too soon!

Yes, I realise that you are talking about later in the year but it is very much not the case at the moment that drivers are just swanning around mainland Europe with nobody asking them for any documentation.

Several areas in the north have just been put back into lockdown for 4 weeks. The whole of France has a curfew - which changed yesterday from 6pm to 7pm - you need appropriate authorisation to be outside of your home after curfew. Only very limited reasons are acceptable.

No restaurants, cafes or bars have been open since October. Takeaways are permitted (but not after 7pm - see curfew above).

New cases in the last three consecutive days have been 29975, 38501 and 34998.

I would absolutely love to think that by June we can just go where we like and cross the borders (just like in the old days!) but many people are assuming that the lifting of restrictions in the UK will apply everywhere on mainland Europe - that is very much not the case at the moment and it will take some sort of miracle for that to occur.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom, there is nothing I would like more than to be able to travel to see family (with a valid vaccine passport) but it is very simplistic to think that you can just get to Fraance and then go anywhere without having to comply with assorted local regulations.

I think a lot of posters on here who have had to commute across land borders during this pandemic will be a little puzzled by your assertion that these borders don't actually exist.

@Bythemillpond

FoonySpucker

This is about later in the year not now.

the only reason you know that you have passed from France in to Spain is because toilets in Service stations in France have no toilet seats

Or possibly by having to provide the correct documentation to the people at the border

Genuinely what border? There is no border.

You might be in France but have you ever driven to Spain or any EU country. There are no borders. No one to give documents to.

Not in normal times, no. But as others have said, there are areas in mainland Europe where you're not permitted to leave the area. Presumably those restrictions are policed in some way. Perhaps the police do spot checks? A bit like in Italy where you needed a self-certification to go out and faced random police checks to ask for the certificate?

We just don't know what's going to happen in mainland Europe, especially if the rate of covid infections and the rates of vaccinations varies enormously between different countries. Maybe not formal "border" controls, but I could very easily foresee more police patrols on the major roads doing random stops and spot checks. Who knows, we may even see that here in the UK if we have to bring back local restrictions/tiers etc as uncontrolled movement of people between areas was probably the main reason why the tier system was a complete and utter fiasco and failure!

FoonySpucker

Not since the pandemic began but before and I don’t see how they can start to stop the traffic on the motorway to check people’s documents. It would be chaos.

Atm in Europe there is curfews and no restaurants open and everything is shut but again we are talking about later in the year. Not now.

Just had a look and the land borders between France and Spain are open.

There’s no physical borders between most EU countries but you would have to be incredibly selfish and stupid to travel somewhere you aren’t allowed to enter. Each country Is allowed to have their own restrictions and if that means you can’t enter because you’re not vaccinated then you need to respect that and not go there.

@RedToothBrush

I will be getting the vaccine. I am pro-vaccine.

However I strongly believe in the principles of consent and that putting people under undue pressure or coercising them in anyway (including guilt or abuse) undermines public trust in institutions and negates the ability to freely consent.

People have the right (yes right) to be wrong. They should have full control over their body and the right to refuse anything going into it (unless they lack the legal capacity to make decisions for themselves). Even if I disagree with their decision and reasoning.

If we start to undermine this principle we risk lost of trust in healthcare and systems in otherways (and this produces resentment, ill feeling or worse).

Exactly, I think people have become very tunnel vision with this and aren’t thinking about wider issues.

There is no absolute wrong or right, everyone thinks they’re right. People need to be able tto make decisions for themselves. I suspect if left to their own devices most people would have the jab tbh. All the pushing and shaming is just feeding the anti vaccine rhetoric

Racoonworld

There’s no physical borders between most EU countries but you would have to be incredibly selfish and stupid to travel somewhere you aren’t allowed to enter. Each country Is allowed to have their own restrictions and if that means you can’t enter because you’re not vaccinated then you need to respect that and not go there

We are talking about later in the year and technically there isn’t anything to stop you from going all around Europe by road.