Some restrictions likely next winter to protect unvaccinated?

[Kokeshi123]

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/19062056.social-distancing-continue-next-spring-expert-warns-vaccines-will-not-stop-coronavirus-cases/
www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/19062056.social-distancing-continue-next-spring-expert-warns-vaccines-will-not-stop-coronavirus-cases/

The emphasis in these discussions by Dr Hunter suggests "some" restrictions next winter--most likely not a strict lockdown. The concern here is that we may continue to see some outbreaks among the unvaccinated. Just wondering how much appetite there is likely to be for this. I find it hard to muster much motivation about protecting those who have chosen to refuse the vaccine. On the other hand, we have to consider those who are not able to have the vaccine and may be made very ill from it.

I can envision someone having their benefits stopped if they dont take the vaccine so they can work in a care home. Care home work is the default setting profession advertised in Job Centres. Because its not seen as a job of value

There will be I think some things people will be able to accept as restrictions, perhaps wearing face coverings in shops or when visiting the GPS and in the waiting room. I cannot see if there is a proportion who have refused any one of the number of vaccines available by then there being much sympathy for them. After any shock or crisis there are various stages of response, and anger is one of them, which I could see being directed at those refusing the vaccine.

There's already moves by care home groups to ensure all new staff are vaccinated, just like with having a dbs it's a requirement of employment. The trickier matter is whether without primary legislation a company can force staff to be vaccinated who are already employed. For domiciliary care the expert I heard said it was easier to get staff to be vaccinated because as a recipient of care you as a family can insist on agencies only sending vaccinated staff thus they can can say to their staff if you want to get shifts you get vaccinated (most are on zero hours contacts which hasten to add I don't approve of). For residential homes it's very tricky because employers could find themselves at an employment tribunal if they dismiss staff refusing vaccination

After any shock or crisis there are various stages of response, and anger is one of them, which I could see being directed at those refusing the vaccine

It will also be directed at those who CANT have the vaccine. Just like it is with face masks. Many threads on here have said there is no reason ppl cant wear one, im exempt but i wear one etc etc etc.

Er no. People who won't or can't take the virus will be in the minority. The needs of the majority will have to come first. We can't keep going on endlessly with lockdowns.

Anyone who refused the vaccine for no valid health reason should be sacked from their job if they work in healthcare and social care.

“No, no I don’t think I’ll give it to someone. I don’t believe in asymptotic spread. I think it’s utter BS.“

Oh for goodness’s sake, what cobblers.
“You don’t believe in”? 🤯

BiscuitsNeeded

“Or do you think it's sheer good luck we no longer die of diphtheria, smallpox etc??”

That’s a big part of the problem. People who were born after the introduction of the NHS and national vaccine programmes have no idea how precarious life was prior to its introduction.
Surprise was expressed during the Today programme one day this week by a young commentator at the high uptake amongst the 80 plus groups. I’m not in the least surprised. Most of them can remember a time when people died because they couldn’t afford the doctor’s fee. Babies were brought forth in filthy, overcrowded conditions by the local “midwife” (usually a grandmother from an equally squalid home with no medical training whatsoever and often not even a bar of carbolic). Children dropped like flies or were left severely disabled by ailments that today we are vaccinated against close to birth or given a week’s worth of tablets for, gratis.
Vaccine denial is a very, very first world thing (other than of course the various religious nut jobs around the world who subscribe to the microchip/western driven infertility theories).

I don’t believe in asymptotic spread. I think it’s utter BS.

This isn't religion, you know, where stating a belief is valid. It matters not what you do or don't "believe".

It doesn't sound like you're an eminent virologist.

Jeez thank goodness for science: facts and data.

“It will also be directed at those who CANT have the vaccine. Just like it is with face masks. Many threads on here have said there is no reason ppl cant wear one, im exempt but i wear one etc etc etc.”

Not by me: that’s one of my main concerns, people who can’t take it and depend on everyone else to keep them protected to a reasonable degree. My personal family considerations are obviously foremost but next are people who rely on the rest of society to help protect them, because they can’t protect themselves
For the same reason I never sent my kids to school with a cold/cough/upset tummy, etc. What was a bit inconvenient to us could be catastrophic for someone else.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Anti vaxxerers are unwittingly digging their own grave.

It’s only a matter of time before workplaces/shops/venues etc won’t admit anyone without a vaccine. Even if the government says people don’t have to have one, private companies will make their own decisions.

I'm not anti vaccine personally, but why do you think shops will be strict on this in a way they weren't on masks?

Also as soon as you have to carry a document, forgers will start selling them.

I know everyone wants control but I think the covid genie is out of the bottle.

Well maybe not shops. But airlines and businesses.

Airlines yes - but that will be due to travel restrictions imposed by governments in part.

Which other businesses? People will simply buy forged records I would think.

There was already a Sky News think about forged test records.

Thing not think!

Which other businesses? People will simply buy forged records I would think.

Really.... it seems that absolutely EVERY effort to do anything about coronavirus has suffered attempts to shut it down on the grounds that "Well, people won't comply/won't stand for it/they'll lie and break the rules." And it's usually turned out to be wrong.

Travel bans were disputed on teh grounds that "people will find ways round them" (actually, travel bans mostly work once they are in place. Few people can afford a private jet, and most people are spooked by the thought of being refused at the airport somewhere and left completely stuck)

Lockdowns were disputed on the grounds that "people will refuse to comply" (actually, people mostly did comply)

Facemasks were argued about on the grounds that "some people have to be medically exempt" "people will lie and find reasons why they can't wear them" Some people have but most people have complied.

etc. etc. etc.

Most rules do have "ways around" if a person is prepared to spend a lot of time and energy finding one, but the reality is that most people will comply if a rule is in place, and it's better to have 99% compliance than 0% compliance.

Also, small shops are another matter, but for things like international travel, event attendance and other big-ticket entrance points where you usually pre-book and pay in advance, it will be easy enough for the officials in charge to CHECK against centralized records of vaccination. The vast majority of people would not do things which might create the risk of being hauled in for questioning by airport security people or immigration officials.

@Kokeshi123

Which other businesses? People will simply buy forged records I would think.

Really.... it seems that absolutely EVERY effort to do anything about coronavirus has suffered attempts to shut it down on the grounds that "Well, people won't comply/won't stand for it/they'll lie and break the rules." And it's usually turned out to be wrong.

Travel bans were disputed on teh grounds that "people will find ways round them" (actually, travel bans mostly work once they are in place. Few people can afford a private jet, and most people are spooked by the thought of being refused at the airport somewhere and left completely stuck)

Lockdowns were disputed on the grounds that "people will refuse to comply" (actually, people mostly did comply)

Facemasks were argued about on the grounds that "some people have to be medically exempt" "people will lie and find reasons why they can't wear them" Some people have but most people have complied.

etc. etc. etc.

Most rules do have "ways around" if a person is prepared to spend a lot of time and energy finding one, but the reality is that most people will comply if a rule is in place, and it's better to have 99% compliance than 0% compliance.

Also, small shops are another matter, but for things like international travel, event attendance and other big-ticket entrance points where you usually pre-book and pay in advance, it will be easy enough for the officials in charge to CHECK against centralized records of vaccination. The vast majority of people would not do things which might create the risk of being hauled in for questioning by airport security people or immigration officials.

This will take months, if not years, to set up and will cost a ton of money. I mean, at present in the UK, all we get is some crappy card (which I imagine is very easy to forge). I can see airports eventually doing this but 'big ticket' companies (for concerts?), not really.

@PurplePlain

ChocOrange1

My baby is 10 months and never had a cold - that's not normal.

I'm torn between sympathy and envy , but agree with you.

That's worrying. Children's immune systems are meant to be challenged. It's one of the ways they become strong. If Social Distancing and constant hand sanitizing remains in place for too long, say the next year or so,we could have lots of children who have never caught even the slightest cold. There could be a generation of children with weakened immune systems.

I’d very much like the vaccine so it annoys me to hear that people are turning it down. I suppose it’s their choice if it doesn’t impact on society. I wouldn’t be running the country around them in the future though and it the virus mutates because of the refusers I would be expecting to some very strict rules to quarantine them. I also think they will have to accept some limitations with career options and probably few opportunities to travel.

Out of interest, if the vaccine is refused, how much time and effort is put into convincing antivaxxers? Is it a refusal and just move on down the list? Really hoping they don’t bottleneck the system for those of us who do want a vaccine ASAP.

Is it a refusal and just move on down the list?

I can’t imagine they’d waste time on ‘convincing’ right now. Especially as it’s likely to be unsuccessful.

When opportunities become curtailed for anti vaxxers, they’ll start changing their tune. It’s been too easy thus far, they don’t really lose anything by taking an anti vax stance.

That’s about to change.

I think centralised checks from a database for entrance may not be allowed under data protection?

I guess they could change that kind of legislation though? It would be a bit like DBS checks if you work with children.

I can’t speak for the others but if I could sign a bit of paper saying I will never have any treatment for Corona I’d sign it in a heartbeat!

Why do you want to have no treatment? Do you want no treatment for anything?

As eminent astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson famously said; “the good thing about science is that it’s true, whether you believe in it or not”.

So the anti-vaxxers and other intellectually challenged types might want to reflect upon that and then STFU.

As eminent astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson famously said; “the good thing about science is that it’s true, whether you believe in it or not”.

Nope lots of scientists have different beliefs and come to differing outcomes. And science changes all the time with new discoveries and changes to outcomes.

Hmmm, do you think he didn’t already factor that in?

As eminent astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson famously said; “the good thing about science is that it’s true, whether you believe in it or not”.

That’s the most stupid quote I’ve ever read. Scientists do not have a collective view on anything. Barely anything has been proven. All just theories. Strong theories often last for years, only for new science to come along and disprove them.

There are thousands of scientists, professors and Doctors with alternative views and theories of covid and vaccines. All out there for you to hear their views but you’re too ignorant to look.

Of all the absolute shite I’ve heard during the last year . Anything that starts with “the scientists say....” is the absolute worst.

There are millions of Doctors, Scientists, immunologists etc in the World. But you chose to listen to the handful on mainstream TV. Who stand to gain financially from following a certain narrative. Jokes on you.