AZ - EU dispute 2

[marbellamarc]

Unsure if this will work!

Hand on heart would you all be happy with that? seriously? i'd bet my house again, they'd be howls of protest and demands

Very unhappy but I think the ire would be directed at the government & BoJo. Our lack of PPE wasn't blamed on other countries stopping exporting. We were slow.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/31/france-germany-threaten-covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-shortageeu-uk

This article is really interesting, in that it suggests that the EU already realise that its first interpretation of the contract, which it proclaimed loudly all last week, is wrong. The article suggests acceptance that the U.K. factories are not obliged to service the EU, because the focus of the potential case is whether AZ diverted product out of the EU factories to the U.K.. Clearly, even if this was proven, you'd have to accept that the numbers are against the EU in terms of the whole of the shortfall. The shortfall is at least 70m vaccines, whereas the U.K. has given 9m vaccines in total and lots of those will be Pfizer ones or AZ ones manufactured in the U.K. factory too, so really whilst any amount diverted from the EU would not be totally insignificant, it is really a very small amount of the total shortfall. The shortfall is largely a production issue due to the factory in the EU not yet being in the same place as the U.K. factory and the U.K. having priority over the U.K. factory in the U.K. contract AND, at least arguably in the EU contract (I am a lawyer and don't quite agree with David Allen Green - I think 5.1 points even more strongly to manufacturing in the EU (excl U.K.) for the initial
doses than he says, but I agree that best endeavours is really what matters.)

[quote MRex]@3asAbird - As for all the other purchases in your other questions, I've no idea how all that pans out. I know the UK expected to be behind EU for Moderna because we ordered later.[/quote]
Thank you for answering all my questions.
We ordered moderna before them but not my much same month unlike some of the others.

Is it 1st come 1st served or who places bigger orders.

The contagion chat interesting.
Didn't see them home schooling.

SO it seems been some development I guess court case is off.

Where did they they find or able to produced 40 million az doses?
Do we think AZ uk and government come to secret deal?

Thanks, that's quite a lot of new info.
"on Sunday, Belgium’s prime minister, Alexander De Croo, said an initial inspection at AstraZeneca’s plant in Seneffe, 25 miles south of Brussels, had found evidence to back up the company’s claims of production issues at the site."
No shit Sherlock!! He goes on to say something very funny though:
"De Croo added. “I presume that everyone is working with the best of intentions.""
Bwahahaha. Really? REALLY?!?!?! Wow.

I wonder what they're short of when they call it raw materials?

@MRex

I wasn't keen on Matt Hancock before, always thought he seemed a bit smarmy, bit of a David Cameron mark 2, and was pleased he didn't become leader. I like him now though and it does sound like he's made some very sensible decisions.

It's worth remembering the PPE issues. France took our pre-ordered masks, Germany banned even PPE to Italy. We held government accountable for the gaps, but different decisions could have been taken by the EU that would have made some difference to our death rates. If that helped shape our vaccine strategy and it leads to an minor delay for EU countries then that just seems to be a natural outcome. (Not as much difference as keeping rolling stock in multiple warehouses though, which should always be the future plan. The Contagion type preferably .)

I never heard that France took our masks? I don’t disbelieve you, but I never heard anything about this, only that we didn’t order enough/in time. I heard about Italy though, seems some countries are more equal than others in the EU......

@MRex

Thanks, that's quite a lot of new info. "on Sunday, Belgium’s prime minister, Alexander De Croo, said an initial inspection at AstraZeneca’s plant in Seneffe, 25 miles south of Brussels, had found evidence to back up the company’s claims of production issues at the site." No shit Sherlock!! He goes on to say something very funny though: "De Croo added. “I presume that everyone is working with the best of intentions."" Bwahahaha. Really? REALLY?!?!?! Wow.

I wonder what they're short of when they call it raw materials?

They must be producing it all in uk surely if Belgium factories having issues. Its massive amount to manufacture and deliver in 2months as they have until end if quarter 1. Surely if it was this easy we wouldn't of had all thus drama. Maybe they did have back stock. I really liked az chances in court. Its all very very odd.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/eu-more-vaccine-doses-uk-astrazeneca-oxford-b918103.html

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars - "Coronavirus: French protective mask manufacturer scraps NHS order to keep masks in France | Euronews" www.euronews.com/amp/2020/03/06/coronavirus-french-protective-mask-manufacturer-scraps-nhs-order-to-keep-masks-in-france

That tweet is intriguing 3As

Wonder how they got there with extra doses

Still annoyed about all the noise over it from EU

[quote MRex]@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars - "Coronavirus: French protective mask manufacturer scraps NHS order to keep masks in France | Euronews" www.euronews.com/amp/2020/03/06/coronavirus-french-protective-mask-manufacturer-scraps-nhs-order-to-keep-masks-in-france[/quote]
Wow, they literally say the NHS was the first to order as well.
Was that reported widely in the media here?

Certain outlets seem to take great joy in printing things that paint us in a bad light, and then completely ignoring things that paint is in a good one...

@MarshaBradyo

That tweet is intriguing 3As

Wonder how they got there with extra doses

Still annoyed about all the noise over it from EU

Very odd now explanation of how they can produce this and up production. We ordered 100 million in total 3months before EU. EU ordered 300million and they getting 40million. Does this mean the court case is off. I wonder what the monthly factory output is if the vaccine as thought az had 2 in uk and 2 in Europe. If they make promises they can't deliver on EU get mad again. Court case is in ice again. But what about this emergency order to monitor and export vaccines to 3rd party countries does that still stand?

I don't think so, it's hard to remember as there was so much "aaaaaargh where's the PPE" at the time and I tend to scroll a range of sources. I can only find it reported in The Sun from standard press: "French border guards seize two lorries carrying 130,000 coronavirus face masks for hero NHS medics – The Sun" www.thesun.co.uk/news/11221578/french-snatch-lorries-130000-coronavirus-masks/amp/

Ah wait, Daily Mail too: "French border guards impound trucks filled with 130,000 face masks bound for Britain" www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8137039/amp/French-border-guards-impound-trucks-filled-130-000-face-masks-bound-Britain.html

3asAbird

there is only an extra 1mil, to what was on the table last Thursday/Friday.

originally AZ had said they could only deliver 31 mil? (can't remember off top of my head) which was down from the predicted, that's when the EU started grumbling and slowly losing their minds, then AZ came back and said well we add 8mil to that now.

Then the EU had the massive Tantrum. then backed down.

it looks like AZ has found another 1mil.

Makes a nice round number of 40mil which looks better on tweets. They can probably deliver a week early because it'll be the 9 mil they 'found' the could offer.

yes I think these are from our factorys

MRex - I have posted this one several times over the last few months when people have been ranting about lack PPE.

When you’ve been let down on PPE in a pandemic and people are screaming ‘where’s the PPE???’ the Government put hasty contracts together to try and get if sorted on the hoof but then people scream that the contracts haven’t gone out for tender and cronyism and think right now is a good idea to bring a court case against PPE and Kate Bingham.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/20/revealed-nhs-denied-ppe-at-height-of-covid-19-as-supplies-sent-to-china-coronavirus

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/16/covid-19-contracts-cronyism-government-court

That should say ‘against the government relative to PPE and Kate Bingham’

Anyway, that last para is a bit of a diversion and prob best left for a different thread!!

Wow, they literally say the NHS was the first to order as well.
Was that reported widely in the media here?

It was (I remember reading) however the narrative was very much it was "our" fault & no mention of unfair play. That's why it's odd that the narrative now re vaccine is us being selfish. If we swapped & were in the EUs position the narrative would be our fault for acting too late.

Where did AZ find the additional doses?

There are some really powerful tweets from people from Oxford who were instrumental to this vaccine being developed. I would hope UvL, Stella, Macron and all the other EU leaders / MEP's / beaurocrats who have thrown their toys out of the pram because UK are getting people vaccinated and they have royally fucked up, look at tweets like this and maybe embark on a period of self reflection. I would much prefer we had stayed in the EU and if I had a vote tomorrow it would still be to remain, but this has really shocked me over the last few days. (I've also been shocked how well UK govt has handled it

Below is a tweet from a vaccine researcher.

@GovUK didn't just fund the much-discussed ‘butchers’ shop’ (as I explained 👇) – but in fact we had to shut down the UK shop for refurbishment for some months so we could end up in a better position now, and to let us stop importing from the Dutch shop.
t.co/VvbVfIxjoh

@Wakeupin2022 thank you so much, that's hugely useful and informative.

I link to a connected thread from another researcher, just really to make it easier to find. twitter.com/adamjohnritchie/status/1355136430402580482

Following links bought me to this interesting commentary from a UK lawyer on the contract. twitter.com/js_oleary/status/1355799338811797504

Not to mention re. AZ , the trials were carried out in the U.K. with U.K. volunteers (and then moved to Brazil and SA). I am a volunteer on the trial and where I go they literally stopped all other research, nurses , junior docs etc were redeployed to the trial. It was a huge effort. Still is. We didn’t just rock up at the butchers and buy our sausages like the EU. We created the piglets, fed and cared for them for months, sent them to slaughter. We are also making our own sausages now and maybe we’ll be able to donate them in the future. To use the butchers analogy- not sure it completely works but it’s early

Sam O'Leary thread definitely worth reading. Really clear explanation of the intercompany aspect and the EU's approach to preferring EU manufacture. Also loving the interspersed German quotations and interpretations.

There has been anti vax sentiment surrounding animal products so worth pointing out the AZ vaccine is not manufactured from cute piglets. The analogy works very well though because pigs have large litter sizes and animal husbandry has a huge impact on bacon yields.

@NewYearNewTwatName

3asAbird

there is only an extra 1mil, to what was on the table last Thursday/Friday.

originally AZ had said they could only deliver 31 mil? (can't remember off top of my head) which was down from the predicted, that's when the EU started grumbling and slowly losing their minds, then AZ came back and said well we add 8mil to that now.

Then the EU had the massive Tantrum. then backed down.

it looks like AZ has found another 1mil.

Makes a nice round number of 40mil which looks better on tweets. They can probably deliver a week early because it'll be the 9 mil they 'found' the could offer.

yes I think these are from our factorys

Thank you I got confused I thought they only had 8million didn't realise it was 3q million but now az Europe found 9million extra down the back of the sofa they van deliver a round 40million out of the 80million they expected by end of quarter1 total order 300million az with option order another 100million. So its all good now they happy with extra 9million for now. But its still short and phizer and moderna short so how exactly eu going to meet their target.

Do you think extra is being shipped from UK factory I do.
The raid tue didn't give them any concrete evidence we had away 4million I assume.
The new law authorising vaccines still exists and we know they used in with ppe.
If I was phizer I be nervous.

They did indeed throw a massive trumptrum as only yesterday guardian was reporting France taking AZ to court.
Ironic America are keeping all vaccines made in USA in USA there doesn't even seem like they ship to Canada and e feared that yet the biggest threat of vaccine nationalism comes from Europe.
We contributed more to covax.
We already said once we done uk we offer our spares.

Also eu can see how many people we vaccinated we publish that every day.
Wonder if nicola will cause any issues today with her quest to share info about vaccines.

But our vaccination are mix of AZ and Phizer
I get impression we don't have massive stock pile as soon as we have it we use it.
So how can we already have 4million as another article Implies we had 3.8 million phizer so far and awaiting another 3.8 million soon out of the 40million uk ordered compared to 200million .

Read various different things maximum output uk factory is 2million a week and apparently Tom Bell said maximum output Europe i assume at full capacity once yeild issues resolved 5million.
Combine the 2 thats 7million thats still a small fraction of what uk and Europe and other countries ordered.
Interesting one article said if we just relied in AZ made in uk then we would be 2 months behind.
I don't know if this means the top 4 groups or top 9.
I still don't know criteria vulnerable groups within Europe considering they don't like AZ for over 65.
I know in few months time we have extra vaccines and new brands.
But safe say feb March uk relying on az/phizer and Europe may have some reduced order moderna by Feb uk bot until March.

Interesting tweets.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-55879345?__twitter_impression=true

www.biospace.com/article/european-commission-raids-astra-zeneca-s-belgian-vaccine-plant/

theconversation.com/what-is-behind-the-eus-dispute-with-astrazeneca-over-covid-19-vaccines-154161

I think some is coming from UK, but I also think it will be on UK govt instruction.

@Wakeupin2022

I think some is coming from UK, but I also think it will be on UK govt instruction.

If that's the case why is uk and az not saying this. As its very kind gesture considering way they behaved and may leave us short. I guess government want 2nd doses of phizer as not sure many keen on pick a mix mix and match doses.

I just hope it doesn't leave our vaccination schedule behind as end lockdown and loosening of uk restrictions is linked to how well we do top 4 risk groups by mid Feb.
A lot of people in favour giving Ireland some.

I would also think when AZ said 31 million they were probably giving the minimum they could guarantee and keeping a buffer in case of difficulties to not have to disappoint again, as well as some doses coming from the UK.