AZ - EU dispute 2

[marbellamarc]

Unsure if this will work!

Hand on heart would you all be happy with that? seriously? i'd bet my house again, they'd be howls of protest and demands

Very unhappy but I think the ire would be directed at the government & BoJo. Our lack of PPE wasn't blamed on other countries stopping exporting. We were slow.

@antshouse
Halix in the Netherlands signed 8th December.
Given the three month minimum to produce the vaccine it looks like way to early for much vaccine to have been produced yet never mind what the EU commission are suggesting.

Are you saying that it takes 3 months to get anything from a new plant? Because this article also dated December 8th said that the first doses for the UK would come from the Netherlands (and Germany, but that seems to be only the bottling)
www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-astrazenec-idUKKBN28I1NH

My very limited understanding is that growing a vaccine soup is a bit like making sourdough. It's a living process which takes time, and which may produce a beautifully risen loaf, or a collapsed and stinking mess.

And then there's the issue that you may be able to reliably make one loaf, but can you scale up to turning out dough for 1000 without the whole process going tits up. The UK factories, started in february, have got to the point where they're churning out beautiful loaves on schedule. The EU based ones, started later, are finding their starter unpredictable.

I think there's a lack of clarity about whether the initial UK doses were produced in the UK, transported in vats to Europe to be put into vials, and then returned, or if they have been produced from scratch in the EU. I've heard both. Even if it's the latter, it doesn't mean that the EU plants are yet at the level of producing to the levels in the EU order; the UK shipments are tiny in comparison.

BBC news reporting EU and UK "agree to a reset". This appears to be solely on the Northern Ireland issue, and not the wider debacle.

@Guinan - interesting, so about 20m doses were expected from the EU factories last year, I can't imagine we received anything like that amount or we'd be far over 500k vaccines/ day. Reassuring that 80m should be coming through the UK pipeline though.

Thanks for the link Guinan, that does look like some initial deliveries came from EU.

I was trying to work out where the missing EU vaccines were from. Yes I thought it took quite a while to produce the vaccines and I thought 3 months was mentioned. If the EU contracts were only signed in the last 2 months I couldn't understand why the expected number of doses the media keep mentioning were so high.

No idea but as the press keep telling us its not like making widgets.

@MRex
Somehow, all these figures floating around don't add up at all, so I can certainly understand the call for more transparency (but obviously not the rest of yesterday's circus).

@Motorina

BBC news reporting EU and UK "agree to a reset". This appears to be solely on the Northern Ireland issue, and not the wider debacle.

Yes I think they still want control over vaccine exports.

We think they have an immediate offer of 8million az.
We don't know how much phizer back stock they sat on or quantity phizer can deliver in Feb.
We heard yesterday moderna scheduled deliver moderna to Europe before uk which I expected as we didn't buy in early enough so we wait provisionally until March on moderna order.
We don't know the out phizer can produce in Feb or March yet have they indicated an amount and resolved their issues.
Problem is they not just producing to fulfill uk and eu orders but other countries too.
They already delayed how much they could send to uk and we didn't kick off.
It appears lots of germans don't rate the az and want phizer or moderna.
I assume uk limited stocks phizer which is why we spacing out doses.
I think we probably vaccinating at similar speed to production so like supermarket we operating a just in time principle no massive back stocks.
We cutting it to the wire on phizer I fear hence why we anxious about eu blocking our order.
I get the eu is upset the only 3 vaccine providers they authorised and currently available have reduced supply.
However why they lost their shit at AZ, uk and Ireland over it but haven't had go at moderna/ phizzer and America taking 1st dibs at moderna i don't know.

Looks like they scrapping export ban for now

www.thesun.co.uk/news/13874534/brexit-news-latest-eu-astrazeneca-vaccine-coronavirus-live/

Guessing game. We got 4m. We expected / hoped for 20m, but there wasn't enough ready. AZ still planned to give us 16m. UK offered to let AZ go halfsies to calm matters, hence 8m extra doses. EC still grumbles. They aren't stating direct figures in the debate, that means the 20m is actually in their contract

@MRex

Guessing game. We got 4m. We expected / hoped for 20m, but there wasn't enough ready. AZ still planned to give us 16m. UK offered to let AZ go halfsies to calm matters, hence 8m extra doses. EC still grumbles. They aren't stating direct figures in the debate, that means the 20m is actually in their contract

I wondered where that 8million came from. Have the eu reversed the eu block ir just article 16. As tried find info most recent and all could find is daily mail

@picklemewalnuts
Perfect. Thank you :)

I hadn't realised they backdated it by 3 months. When all trust is gone with a supplier like this, it's an impossibly uncomfortable situation. In business, both sides immediately set up exit plans. The EC need time for more vaccines before they can cancel, I'd love to know AZs plan.

I think the cancellation is only Gove talking about article 16. He's made it sound broader (to give them a way out?), but I see nothing in the other side.

Rather shocked at the lack of articke 16 coverage from some EU papers. DW has or as a sideline to Arlene Foster saying there need to be changes, linked to vaccine row... As though NI have anything at all to do with vaccines! (Never thought I'd be annoyed on behalf of AF!)

Interesting article I have just spotted on my evening perusal of news. It was discussed on yesterday's thread so I have linked it below.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9205287/Send-surplus-jabs-Republic-Ireland-help-Irish-neighbours-Boris-Johnson-urged.html

@MRex

I hadn't realised they backdated it by 3 months. When all trust is gone with a supplier like this, it's an impossibly uncomfortable situation. In business, both sides immediately set up exit plans. The EC need time for more vaccines before they can cancel, I'd love to know AZs plan.

I think the cancellation is only Gove talking about article 16. He's made it sound broader (to give them a way out?), but I see nothing in the other side.

Rather shocked at the lack of articke 16 coverage from some EU papers. DW has or as a sideline to Arlene Foster saying there need to be changes, linked to vaccine row... As though NI have anything at all to do with vaccines! (Never thought I'd be annoyed on behalf of AF!)

You are totally correct I think its odd as media so caught up with article 16 and Ireland that they forgotten this power ei has over inspections of vaccines and authorising exports. Gove said bojo has spoken to ursurla its all sorted there won't be any issues with phizer deliveries they gave their word. I think EU leaving dust to settle before they choose to strike. Have they accepted the 8million AZ vaccines. We don't know how much phizer they have ir if they just slow with vaccinating I know some states said they ran out. Moderna is also reduced . I feel feb may be very tense time.

Arlene Foster has asked UK government to give spare vaccines to Ireland.
Not sure if Ireland be allowed to accept or want to accept.
But last night it felt like all of Ireland agreed which is progress I guess.
Be interesting see if eu blocks Canada, new Zealand , Israel and Australia.
Phizer already said they prepared to move some production outside of the EU so this may truly backfire on eu wanting vaccines made within the EU.

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jan/30/australias-coronavirus-vaccine-rollout-hit-as-eu-gives-itself-power-to-block-exports

The more I read from variety uk and eu media the more confused I get.
I don't get answers I get more question's

1. when a company enters a contract to buy is the bill for vaccines separate from set up factory pay for research costs?
2. do countries pay bill in full or place down-payment and get invoiced and pay for every subsequent top up delivery
3. has the eu only paid for az set up costs not vaccines or they only part paid.
4. how much AZ vaccines so they have this week 8million? Or none?
5. wheres this 8million come from? UK factory?
6. is THE A z factories in Europe got any any current output and producing a small amount?
7. if the eu factories got problems with production how do they supposedly produce 4million doses and ship to UK or other countries. I assume the eu AZ factory must have produced and exported something if eu claim not to have any and raid factory to look at their export books.
8. even more surprisingly why are the germans prepared get their extra phizer doses after eu when it appears their contacts and payment was made prior to the EU. 9)Another German conundrum Phizer is a usa and German bio tech partnership so makes sense Germany would want to order more phizer over any other vaccine. So 70million euros given to German company curevac. Was that the cost of the vaccines or just setting up their production. They not even got through trials and may not be available until next year.
9. whats happening with sannofi we know the EU placed large order i wonder what EU have paid them and when they be available.
10. new players to the EU game are Moderna and Johnson and Johnson next. Then later Sept onwards 2021 valneva and norovax maybe online and available to approve and deliver. The EU has yet to place orders with these 2. Sannofi and curevac may not if ever deliver until 2022. We know AZ the least favourite but that puts all the pressure and demands on Phizer and Moderna. We know all companies so far not just AZ been besieged with delays and production issues that seems take months to iron out. Logically there's chance as optimistic as Johnson and Johnson is they may encounter delays too. Moderna the 3rd to talk about delays. I knew the UK went for moderna late and we only ordered 7million but seems we ordered before EU yet EU was meant get their stock in Feb but UK was told March. So moderna putting Europe 1st over UK and we not complaining to them that they treating us like 2nd class citizens
11. phizer orders they cut back production did they cut back all countries by equal amounts to be fair. I assume uk is short on phizer and so is the EU. The rest if the world also want phizer made in Europe. So Australia Canada and Israel and dare say a few more. Why are EU not having a go at phizer? Cant they see uk is similar situation phizer have so far been unable to meet our demand schedule or fulfill our order but we haven't kicked off.
12. we know Hungary and Serbia getting Russian vaccine and Hungary getting Chinese vaccines too. If they readily available and got through trials will the EU order from them?
13. I am assuming phizer have usa factories so why would Canada order not come out USA factory not Europe? Maybe contact says USA factory exclusive manufacture for usa states in same way AZ uk for UK. They say they setting up in oz but initial does have come from Europe. I assume all Israel stock comes from Europe.
14. USA contract usa orders complete 1st with Moderna is blatant vaccines nationalism yet not a word is said against usa firms its all on AZ being the bad guys.

I hate the mail but wasent untl saw it all on 1 paper with time lines I thought this is all bonkers.

It appears storm has passed for now but I fear temporarily so.
They reversed article 16 but reserve their right to use in future.
They assured British government they won't take our phizer which is all uk cares about as the az supplies are in the UK.
But this authorisation and transparency clause ban still exists came into motion yesterday until at least March.
So we have to see in Feb if their assurances mean anything.
Or of they will force phizer to break contracts with 3rd countries outside of Europe.

Breaking:

"The UK’s international trade secretary, Liz Truss, says the EU has guaranteed there will be no disruption to Pfizer vaccines being supplied to the UK from within the EU despite the EU’s threat ofexport controls on vaccines produced within the bloc.

Asked if she could absolutely guarantee the Belgium-made Pfizer jabs would not be disrupted, she told BBC One’s the Andrew Marr Show:

Yes, I can. The prime minister has spoken to the president of the European Commission, she has assured him that there will be no disruption of contracts that we have with any producer in the EU."

Would have liked to listen to that convo!

@3asAbird - too many at once!

1. when a company enters a contract to buy is the bill for vaccines separate from set up factory pay for research costs?
2. do countries pay bill in full or place down-payment and get invoiced and pay for every subsequent top up delivery
3. has the eu only paid for az set up costs not vaccines or they only part paid.

• Separate bills, EC pay R&D and Individual countries pay for doses after arrival (they are also allowed to sell on those doses)
• I read the EU paid 1/3 of the initial set-up cost so far, so possibly €120m or so, but I can't find any official source to say what they have or haven't paid.

@3asAbird
4) how much AZ vaccines so they have this week 8million? Or none?
5) wheres this 8million come from?
UK factory?
6) is THE A z factories in Europe got any any current output and producing a small amount?
7) if the eu factories got problems with production how do they supposedly produce 4million doses and ship to UK or other countries.
I assume the eu AZ factory must have produced and exported something if eu claim not to have any and raid factory to look at their export books.

We don't know right now officially how many doses have come from each factory, nor where they've gone / are going. I'd love to know too!

8. even more surprisingly why are the germans prepared get their extra phizer doses after eu when it appears their contacts and payment was made prior to the EU. 9)Another German conundrum Phizer is a usa and German bio tech partnership so makes sense Germany would want to order more phizer over any other vaccine. So 70million euros given to German company curevac. Was that the cost of the vaccines or just setting up their production. They not even got through trials and may not be available until next year.

Germany believe in the European Project. There was a link posted elsewhere that those who tried setting up the Vaccine Alliance were made to apologise for it to Merkel. The letter itself wasn't actually as clear an apology as billed, but it was surprising. Anyway, they understand they need to wait.

@3asAbird - As for all the other purchases in your other questions, I've no idea how all that pans out. I know the UK expected to be behind EU for Moderna because we ordered later.

@Mishna I would feel an awful lot happier if I heard clear reassurances coming from Stella Kyriakides. I don't see that. And, other than the Irish border issue, I see very little rowing back from the EU on this. As far as I can tell, they intend to press ahead with requiring 3 months retrospective information on vaccine exports, prior approval of exports to the UK uniquely out of all EU-bordering countries, and the power to block those exports.

This is not reassuring, no matter what our own politicians might be saying.

I think they're leaving the EC enough rope, it's up to them what they do with it. It's the "say the minimum or it's all going to be spun into being your fault" approach still.

Motorina I share your misgivings. However I would not be at all surprised if the full consignment of the Pfizer commitment is already produced and ready on ice in the UK already.

Alternatively I assume before calling Ursula Boris double checked with Pfizer that they could simply reroute to US fulfilment rather than Belgium. That would cause huge problems for Germany who would then be left struggling to get bespoke EU only manufacture with a pissed off commercial company reluctant to prioritise it.

Or checked Pfizer are ready and willing to go to court with their contracts, they will have a view on that too.

I've been cross with the BBC coverage on this whole debacle, and have been looking elsewhere for more balanced journalism. Cant believe I think I found it in RT! The headline will be divisive but I think it's true nevertheless.

www.rt.com/op-ed/513811-uk-eu-vaccine-failure-brexit/