London School of Hygiene & Medicine states that all schools need to be closed

[SoscaredforJan]

Pre-print of the new B.1.1.7 lineage published 23rd Dec 2020.

“Our estimates suggest that control measures of a similar stringency to the national lockdown implemented in England in November 2020 are unlikely to reduce the effective reproduction number Rt to less than 1, unless primary schools, secondary schools, and universities are also closed.

We project that large resurgences of the virus are likely to occur following easing of control measures.

It may be necessary to greatly accelerate vaccine roll-out to have an appreciable impact in suppressing the resulting disease burden.”

cmmid.github.io/topics/covid19/uk-novel-variant.html

@BustopherPonsonbyJones

GoldenOmbre It is equally depressing when parents blame teacher and say teachers need to stop being lazy, teachers need to stop moaning, teachers aren’t special and need to get on with it. The current situation is showing the problems with that approach too.

I think we will have to accept there will be holes in key services and we will all be affected. The government should be working on how they will deal with this (and not by pretending that schools will stay open).

I absolutely agree. Teachers are not to blame for this shitshow and if the government really valued education, it would be pouring money into schools to make them as safe as they can possibly be as workplaces as well as places for education.

@christinarossetti19

TrustTheGeneGenie what are your thoughts on the safety of school staff?

Do you think they should have the right to the same level of risk of exposure to the virus as the rest of the working population, or is acceptable that they should be faced with persistently higher risk due to a lack of mitigation measures in their workplace?

Because that's what's happened this term, and I cannot understand anyone who thinks it would be okay for school staff to continue like this, even if all you're concerned about is that there are actually some staff well enough to be able to go to work so that children can go to school.

All I'm bothered about? I'm not going to dignify that with an answer.

Christina with the older strain I think we could have done more to make school safe, but I'm not sure how we can with this new highly infectious strain? Bar asking each pupil to sit in perspex boxes with special air devices!!

@christinarossetti19. I agree with you in that there ought to have been a much more thorough discussion of how to make schools safe.

Some nurseries have managed it. My DS's nursery has practically moved outside since September. Very few toys, all activities outside, tarps rigged up across the grounds to provide shelter from the rain and meals served outside. In addition, they have stringent hygiene and handwashing and are rigorously enforcing non-mixing of bubbles. Of the three bubbles, one bubble has had to shut for two weeks since September and that's all.

[quote MessAllOver]@christinarossetti19. I agree with you in that there ought to have been a much more thorough discussion of how to make schools safe.

Some nurseries have managed it. My DS's nursery has practically moved outside since September. Very few toys, all activities outside, tarps rigged up across the grounds to provide shelter from the rain and meals served outside. In addition, they have stringent hygiene and handwashing and are rigorously enforcing non-mixing of bubbles. Of the three bubbles, one bubble has had to shut for two weeks since September and that's all.[/quote]
Sounds bloody awful.

@stanlet. My son loves it! We send them in thermals and waterproofs and they spend most of the day doing activities in the garden and the woods.

Sounds well handled by the nursery and obviously much easier to maintain bubbles etc than in schools, esp secondary.

PandemicPavlova agree that we need to know more about this new strain. The info that piggyinblankets posted from PHE shows very clearly the sharp increases in the south-east and that educational settings are the primary source of transmissions.

Part-time schooling is probably the only realistic option on the table for the New Year, and it's not even clear how far into the New Year that it would be realistic to even start, to keep numbers low, bubbles separate and protect both children and school staff.

That makes it sound like any nursery or school that had a case, or a closed bubble, didn't have robust mitigation measures. There is only covid lucky, or covid unlucky. No other option.

God I couldn't imagine sending my tiny child to spend all day outside 5 days a week in this weather.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

God I couldn't imagine sending my tiny child to spend all day outside 5 days a week in this weather.

There are nurseries that do that even in non-pandemic times though? They dress the kids up properly for the weather. I've never had mine in a fully outdoor nursery, but the first nursery I used did 'forest school' one day a week all year round and the preschoolers seemed to absolutely love it.

I know some nurseries do it but I personally don't like it, that's all. I'm all for outside time, out nursery did outside activities but in all weather's I just think it's horrible even if you are properly dressed.

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot. I agree there's not a lot that could be done about out of school transmission but in-school transmission could be reduced if more classes were taught in the open air. Rigging up rain shelters in the playground seemed the obvious thing to do in September... I've heard of a couple of schools doing this but I don't think it's widespread.

@TrustTheGeneGenie. It might not suit every child, but DS absolutely loves it. Even in the sleeting rain, I get pictures of him with a big smile jumping in puddles and making "mud pies". They have a reading corner under a teepee and a supervised firepit where the children can warm up.

I'm sure that the staff would have preferred being inside in the warm, but moving to outside was presumably to reduce the risk of viral transmission ie the well-being of the children, their families and the staff rather than for the sheer joy of being outside in a UK winter.

I dunno TrustTheGeneGenie you've said a lot about what you like and don't like, and what you want and what you don't want, but never seem to engage with the wider realities of living in a pandemic.

You were complaining earlier that your 4 year old wouldn't be able to socialise. I pointed out that even Tier 4 rules permitted that and you ignored it.

You haven't engaged with the reality of the risk to staff in schools being open but have been insistent that schools should be open, but you haven't offered any thoughts about what would be acceptable and possible.

Just an observation.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

God I couldn't imagine sending my tiny child to spend all day outside 5 days a week in this weather.

Same here. I would hate being outside for 50 hours a week

MessAllOver my dd's secondary did as much outside teaching as possible. Her year were also outside for breaks and lunch; they reduced lunch to half an hour after half-term as the children were getting cold standing around and there was nowhere inside for them to go.

Schools have really tried to be as creative as they can within the guidelines to be safe, but it hasn't been possible to ensure that.

I pointed out that even Tier 4 rules permitted that and you ignored it.
I didn't see it......

I've never claimed to have any answers, and this is forum so you know, I am allowed to have an opinion ffs.

Stop "observing" because honestly I couldn't give a shit.

@PandemicPavolova

Golden

People get grumpy about all sorts of things but being a little grumpy over a pot hole is nothing compared to the utter fear they will have when they call that ambulance for a seriously ill relative and that ambulance doesn't come....or when they get to a and e and can't even get in to be triaged then mistakes are made because staff are run ragged... Short staffed and have had no sleep...

You been to whipps cross hospital in leytonstone then. Sounds like an average week.

I mean, there might be reasons why it's not possible but our local primary schools (Outer London) have reasonable sized playgrounds (even if they're concrete jungles). Would it be impossible to rig up some marquees or outdoor shelters and move as many classes as possible outside? The risk of transmission is after all greatly reduced in the open air. Yes, students would have to be dressed properly, but most could layer up with multiple jumpers, mittens, winter coats and thick socks. Much better than being in germ-ridden classrooms.

That is very evident Genie.

But yes you can meet another adult in Tier 4 with your child as children don't 'count' in the 2 person rule.

That's good news, isn't it!

@christinarossetti19

That is very evident Genie.

But yes you can meet another adult in Tier 4 with your child as children don't 'count' in the 2 person rule.

That's good news, isn't it!

Yes, great. Comparable to school? No.

Why do you feel the need to be so patronising?

MessAllOver that's what my child's secondary did in September.

Marquees in the rain don't really work, as it just comes in the sides. No electricity doesn't really work as teaching is so reliant on tech these days. Being cold for hours doesn't really work.

But they did try to keep transmission down, which I'm sure that it did to a degree, but there were still scores of positive cases throughout the school by the end of term.

@christinarossetti19. Sorry, I posted before reading your latest. I'm just slightly sceptical of the 'children get too cold' reasoning when the tinies seem to cope fine with it.

I've never claimed to have any answers, and this is forum so you know, I am allowed to have an opinion ffs.

Forgive us if we don't find your opinion a useful contribution to the discussion, then. I've much more time for posters who are honest that it's difficult for everyone. Seeing things from both sides is how you create a way forward.

Of course it's not comparable to school!

But you were bemoaning your child's lack of socialisation full stop, and the guidelines are such that it doesn't have to be as extreme as you feared.

I thought you'd be pleased with this information.