Would it help to close secondary schools?

[allthesharks]

While the news today is disappointing for many, I was incredibly worried about the likely surge of cases in schools when they go back in January. Hopefully, that won't be quite as extreme now that so many people won't be mixing (although I'm not naaive enough to think that there are people who will still ignore the rules). But there will still be a steady increase in cases once schools have been back for a few weeks and I had the following thought:

Would it be beneficial to close all secondary schools? And then spread primary aged children out, using the class rooms in secondary schools. Children aged 11-16 are more likely to be able to learn remotely and to not be such a hindrance for a parent who needs to work from home (not taking in to account SEN). I'm not suggesting that an 11 year old could be completely self sufficient for a day, however if a parent said "I have a meeting and I need you to not disturb me for the next hour unless it's a real emergency", I think an 11 year old could manage that.

That would then free up secondary school premises for primary children to decant to. If, for example, all junior classes moved to a secondary school building, then the primary school building could be used to halve the classes and space children out and the same could be done with the junior children in the secondary school building. In terms of teaching, there's obviously the issue of staffing. But LSAs could take half the class (I'm working on the basis that each primary class has at least one LSA, which is the case in my partner's primary school) and the teacher take the other half. They could then use zoom for the teacher to go through the learning objective for the half of the class not with them and the LSA would be there to ensure they are paying attention/understand what to do etc. The LSA could also be in contact with the teacher to ask for any clarification/assistance as required.

While this wouldn't be an ideal scenario, I feel it would be better than having all schools close again and have primary age children learning remotely while their parents also need to work. The government could even temporarily change the curriculum to only focus on Maths and English which is all they test children on at KS1 and KS2 level and then have other lessons available for remote learning. This would mean children would only need to be at school 3/4 days a week and give the teachers the opportunity for PPA. Although I appreciate this would cause an issue for parents who need to work. But again, less of an issue than if we went in to a full lockdown with children at home full time.

I don't know. Maybe there's a massive flaw in this idea that I haven't considered, and I would be happy to hear what it is. I just feel that the government have gone for an all or nothing approach and there must be some middle ground.

I think this is a good idea, the main flaw is geography though. Our catchment secondary is opposite our primary but it also is the secondary for many other primaries so it could be difficult for some parents to get their children to the secondary location?

Also I think you are lucky to have a TA per class, we have one for the year of 70. Not sure if that’s normal or if we are unlucky. So not all schools will have the staff to facilitate it.

There’s also the issue that online learning for secondary children will only work for those who have the motivation, technology and a quiet space to work. So many children do not and I think it will widen the achievement gap and be a massive disadvantage to certain children. Although constant isolating have also disadvantaged these children. My daughter is year 8, pretty self motivated and has an iPad through school and her own laptop as well as a quiet bedroom with desk etc to work in but she is dreading the potential return to online school in January and has asked if it’s going to be longer than a month can I say I m a key worker so she can go into school! So online school is far from ideal but so is everything else this year!

Secondary school children need face to face teaching, they cannot self motivate to remote learn like Uni age children can/should. Primary school kids can manage with home learning, reciting tables, simple sums and learning to read that ANY parent can manage, and if they can't they shouldn't be parents. Utterly stupid idea. Our rprimar yage children have years to 'catch up' with missed learning, our secondary school age children don't.

Yes, geography isn't an issue I had considered. But it likely to be less of an issue in more built up areas which is where the virus itself is more of an issue.

Of course there would still be a need for keyworker, SEN and ECHP provision as there was in the first lockdown, but I think that would still be do-able. I would imagine the average primary school is 2 or 3 form entry. And secondary schools are much larger so could potentially accommodate 2 or more primary schools as well as having physical space for children who still need to attend school as part of the provision mentioned above.

You're right that technology and having a decent work space at home could definitely pose an issue, especially if you have more than one secondary age child at home.

Motivation is certainly another factor. My only suggestion to combat this would be to ensure regular zoom video meetings between children and their form tutor.

I don't in any way think that this would be a good long term solution. But it might be a sensible interim one rather than having to shut all schools again. Which I can, sadly, see coming.

Closing secondary schools would most certainly help cut the rate of spread of Covid.

Closing secondary schools would not help secondary pupils who’s education has suffered.

Closing secondary schools would create additional learning and childcare space for children who are primary age and cannot stay at home alone.

Closing secondary would not help secondary teachers, for whom online learning is a fucking nightmare and far more demanding of time and effort than face to face learning, adding stress to an already stressful situation.

I guess it depends who you’re trying to help.

No.

But primary schools will be closing anyway, it’s inevitable

@stoopdragon I suppose I was thinking of it in terms of allowing parents to work. While parents are more likely to be able to teach a primary curriculum than a secondary curriculum, primary children are more likely to need parental assistance to learn than a secondary child is. But I do know that very much depends on the child.

And I do agree with you that motivation is a big factor. I'm not really comparing to what the ideal situation is, but more thinking about what would be a better solution that fully closing schools like we had last time. I think we all know that the government are keeping schools open to allow parents to work rather than ensuring our children are being educated (not that I agree that this is the right attitude).

I'm not sure the numbers stack up for that. It would be like having half the school in plus keyworkers, EHCP holders and Y11 and Y13 in a secondary school.

OK, so playing devils advocate, would the reverse help? Shutting all primary schools to then allow secondary school pupils to spread out by using their buildings? That would allow them to continue face to face learning at a time that it's more important for them. Primary aged children could remote learn with their parents' assistance, the impact of which shouldn't be so detrimental to their education. But then parents of primary aged children would struggle to work from home.

There is no ideal in this situation. I just think there must be something better than keep sending kids to school and seeing the covid rates soar or shutting it all down completely.

Not all schools have had cases. I think schools should be closed on a case by case only.

Shutting primaries has a massive impact on working parents though. That's why primaries will be the last to close.

It's a tricky one. I think secondary schools will probably have to close, though it's far from ideal. I'm not sure that primary schools should get priority. I get that it's convenient for parents, but younger kids do have more time to catch up than the older ones.

I think you're being remarkably optimistic to assume that the average primary school has one LSA per class. That used to be the case round here, but the funding has been cut right back and those days are long gone.

@pastmybestbeforedate I wasn't really thinking about yr 11 and 13. I suppose I was comparing to the first lockdown where GCSEs and A levels were cancelled and that wasn't a factor. I suppose, thinking about the schools in my area, a 5 form entry secondary school must have at least 35 class rooms (taking in to account sixth form). If you had everyone from Yr 11 (5 classes) and Yr 13 (5 classes) attend, they would need to be split in to double the amount of classes (20 classes), which leaves 15 class rooms available. If you moved the juniors from a 1 form entry school in to the secondary as well you would need 8 class rooms. That leaves 7 available classrooms for keyworker children, those with SEN and those with an ECHP. So I guess that does only allow for a 1 form entry school to use the space and given there are less secondary schools that primary schools it wouldn't work.

You have found the flaw in my plan!

I would prefer to see a blended approach, rather than shutting whole schools for extended periods. One week in and one week remote learning, or similar. I think that would be the best solution for kids' education and mental health. Of course, it wouldn't help parents with childcare.

If you had everyone from Yr 11 (5 classes) and Yr 13 (5 classes) attend, they would need to be split in to double the amount of classes (20 classes), which leaves 15 class rooms available

It's not that simple, though. OP. You wouldn't have enough teachers to just split the a level and gcse option classes into two, and if they're just going to be in a classroom with an lsa/supply teacher, they might as well be at home learning remotely.

:) sharks
I agree with blended learning Alexa but I would like the flexibility for parents who are ECV to keep DC on online learning if they choose.

@Alexashutup

I wasn't sure about the number of LSAs. My partner works in a 4 form entry primary school where they have at least 1 LSA per class plus set teachers, so that's the basis for my knowledge but I guess it isn't a good benchmark for everywhere.

I am fortunate that my DCs school hasn't had any cases and haven't had to close any bubbles. So you are right @justgottokeeponkeepingon that it should be done on a case by case basis. I just think it would be worse if all schools are closed again, especially for those who have had no cases.

@AlexaShutUp I was thinking more about the LSA/supply teacher being necessary for the younger ones who need to be supervised. Theoretically, for Yr 11s and Yr 13s, if the rest of the secondary aged children were not physically at school it would allow other teachers to be available to teach them whilst other teachers would be available to set/mark remote learning.

I do know that remote learning is more complex for teachers than being in a class room. I'm just trying to think of things that would be better than closing schools fully. Although to what end I'm not sure, it's not as though I can do anything about it!

There are many children who benefit from being in school for reasons other than their education though, the ones who are neglected or unsafe at home. It's a minefield.

@AlexaShutUp I was thinking more about the LSA/supply teacher being necessary for the younger ones who need to be supervised. Theoretically, for Yr 11s and Yr 13s, if the rest of the secondary aged children were not physically at school it would allow other teachers to be available to teach them whilst other teachers would be available to set/mark remote learning.

In theory, yes, but there are quite a few subjects in dc's school where there is only one teacher for the whole school, so that wouldn't work for those subjects. I guess it would be an option for the bigger subjects.

I think my own dd (year 11) would prefer a blended learning approach instead of having a load of different teachers who don't really know her, but she worked quite well during lockdown so might not be representative. I do agree with a pp that full remote learning should be an option for those who have CEV family members.

My primary is a 3-form intake but we only have TAs in the morning, so this would be difficult to staff.

I can see all schools closing for 2/3 weeks in January/February and the secondaries remaining remote for some year groups for longer.

I'd be on board with blended learning. I'm on maternity leave at the moment so it would be somewhat doable even with a baby at home as well, but if I had both children at home at the same time that would be more tricky. However, when I'm back at work, it would be difficult especially if they were on opposite weeks.

The reality is that we've figured out the ideal education system and that is for all children aged 5-18 to attend school every day from 9 until 3. But now we're not in the ideal situation and, sadly, our ideal education system seems to be a big problem in spreading the virus. I also wonder if it would be better to vaccinate all school aged children and school staff (although I know the vaccine isn't licensed for under 16s). There must be a better solution than shutting all the schools again.

@Alexashutup The problem with blended learning - one week in, one week off - is that it doesn't serve parents who are working and that is what Bojo cares about. I understand it to a degree - we need people working to support our economy. But if we don't educate our children properly now, then that also won't sustain the economy. Not to mention to impact on their mental health and the impact that will subsequently have on health services etc.

My children are young and they have taken much of this in their stride but my eldest is prone to worrying and I think if she were older this could have had a very detrimental impact on her mental health. In that respect we are lucky and I do appreciate that many parents of older children are having to deal with much more extreme emotions with their children.

If my secondary school is going to be taken over by primary pupils (last count we have over 30 feeder primary schools) where am I delivering my secondary students remote learning from? We have over 100 teaching staff.

@Fedup21 I didn't realise that LSAs were so few in some schools. As I said, the school my partner works in has at least one in each class. And my DCs school is the same.

My suggestion clearly isn't viable. I, sadly, concede that. I just wish there were a realistic option.

Secondary schools are closed where I live so all substitute teachers can be funneled to lower grades. The students have been learning online for months and it’s working really well. Dd is absolutely thriving and I see real advantages in this method of learning. Basically because it gives her the flexibility to complete some easy tasks quickly and really dive into ones she is passionate about.

It helps that our catchment is relatively well off so most people have good internet and the schools already issued every student a laptop in normal times so students each have a dedicated device for doing school via zoom. The few families that did not have quality internet are having it provided by the school.