Would it help to close secondary schools?

[allthesharks]

While the news today is disappointing for many, I was incredibly worried about the likely surge of cases in schools when they go back in January. Hopefully, that won't be quite as extreme now that so many people won't be mixing (although I'm not naaive enough to think that there are people who will still ignore the rules). But there will still be a steady increase in cases once schools have been back for a few weeks and I had the following thought:

Would it be beneficial to close all secondary schools? And then spread primary aged children out, using the class rooms in secondary schools. Children aged 11-16 are more likely to be able to learn remotely and to not be such a hindrance for a parent who needs to work from home (not taking in to account SEN). I'm not suggesting that an 11 year old could be completely self sufficient for a day, however if a parent said "I have a meeting and I need you to not disturb me for the next hour unless it's a real emergency", I think an 11 year old could manage that.

That would then free up secondary school premises for primary children to decant to. If, for example, all junior classes moved to a secondary school building, then the primary school building could be used to halve the classes and space children out and the same could be done with the junior children in the secondary school building. In terms of teaching, there's obviously the issue of staffing. But LSAs could take half the class (I'm working on the basis that each primary class has at least one LSA, which is the case in my partner's primary school) and the teacher take the other half. They could then use zoom for the teacher to go through the learning objective for the half of the class not with them and the LSA would be there to ensure they are paying attention/understand what to do etc. The LSA could also be in contact with the teacher to ask for any clarification/assistance as required.

While this wouldn't be an ideal scenario, I feel it would be better than having all schools close again and have primary age children learning remotely while their parents also need to work. The government could even temporarily change the curriculum to only focus on Maths and English which is all they test children on at KS1 and KS2 level and then have other lessons available for remote learning. This would mean children would only need to be at school 3/4 days a week and give the teachers the opportunity for PPA. Although I appreciate this would cause an issue for parents who need to work. But again, less of an issue than if we went in to a full lockdown with children at home full time.

I don't know. Maybe there's a massive flaw in this idea that I haven't considered, and I would be happy to hear what it is. I just feel that the government have gone for an all or nothing approach and there must be some middle ground.

Not to mention she has learnt nothing with online learning so in effect has lost a year of education already.

I think it's worth remembering that schools are more prepared now for online learning than they were back in March. We know which students are likely to not engage, we know who has access to IT and who doesn't, we have plans and have done training of staff to ensure really good quality remote learning.

@Ilovegreentomatoes were you not part of the key worker provision, as an early years worker?

I think you need to take into account the psychological aspects of this. The only bit of normality we have had of late is our teenagers going to school. I’m prepared to stick rigidly to the rules to keep them in school. If the schools are closed again, then I will re-assess my willingness to stick to the rules (it isn’t sustainable to see no adult other than DH - and permanent WFH is such a lonely existence).

Green tomatoes then she should go in key worker provision?

The flip side is, a teen having a parent ill with covid and getting poor treatment due to sheer volume in nos, maybe unable to reach them, busy wards, beds in corridors, no phone charger, unable to get the proper medical equipment..

If you close secondary schools it doesn't necessarily stop the children mixing - it just stops them mixing in school. At least when they are in school there is an opportunity to track and trace.
It is so frightening for all the adults working in secondary schools though. No social distancing, no PPE and no support from central Government.

I genuinely don't know what the answer is.

No - you learn nothing via online learning

Do you ahve anything other than anecdotal evidence for that?

I know teachers are commonly believed to just say "that won't work" on here (most of the time what people suggest isn't possible), but I'm sticking my head above the parapet to say I don't mind losing or moving some holidays this coming calendar year.

I think we should stay closed to all but exam years, vulnerable and children of KW in yr 7/8f or at least the first two (not one) week of next term and then introduce part-time for years 7-10 & 12-13 - until people in vaccine categories 1-6 are all vaccinated.

Potentially primary could go part-time as well, though you'd need more childcare hubs/facilities set up alongside.

If you close secondary schools it doesn't necessarily stop the children mixing - it just stops them mixing in school

Yes. They may mix in others houses instead which is even worse.

This is mentioned a lot. It just can't logically be worse.

Years 10 and up (and in some schools, earlier years) mix with up to 300 people a day, or maybe there's some crossover (same students in all their ability sets and similar options groups, so, say, 100). Even if ALL the kids chose to socialise in the daytime when they were supposed to be logged on at home doing school work, they would mix with, what up to 5 close friends? There is no way it would be the same number of contacts/vectors.

A little late for this, no?

Talk about locking the door after the horse has bolted.

Of course it's massively after the horse has bolted...Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something different for the next few months or until the most vulnerable people have been vaccinated?

@Jinglingmod

Of course it's massively after the horse has bolted...Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something different for the next few months or until the most vulnerable people have been vaccinated?

I agree! Unfortunately, the Government has different ideas. Keep schools open AT ALL costs to society.

Of course it wouldn't be worse infectionwise. In school they are packed together cheek by jowl, mixing bubbles (which are 300 anyway) in corridors and public transport and try as we might we can't stop them snogging in the stationery cupboards/behind the bike sheds etc.
Online learning can work. I did it all summer term. Schools know which kids need more support and who can motivate independently. A rota of week on week off would also help this but thin out numbers onsite. Harder for teachers, but if it saves lives that's worth it.
Feel a bit like it's all the posters who want schools open no matter the cost and have been accusing teachers of 'not having a can do attitude' are showing a bit of a 'no can do attitude' themselves to online/blended learning...

My dd did not engage with online she was depressed and demotivated. School did nothing no phone call no contact.I was out working from 8 till 7 so could not supervise. So no online does not work for some and for working parents it is hard to motivate when your not there in person. It was clearly obvious in the last lockdown that some schools failed massively at this.

@SchrodingersUnicorn I think you will find some of us parents are sick of online so yes I hold my hands up I am demotivated with it all. Especially as I cannot help dd with online work as I don't understand it myself and teachers at my dd school were pretty much uncontactable during that time.

Schools will no doubt be shut most of jan anyway so as the foreseeable is constant school closures I'll probably be handing in my notice and look for another job when things are somewhere more normal.

Ilovegreentomatoes

Likewise, as a teacher, it’s been quite a revelation this year to see just how disposable we are. I’ve caught and brought Covid home from work, I’ve been told that I am expected to work longer, harder and with minimal PPE. Despite working more, getting sick and being truly exhausted, parents are still all over Facebook demanding that holidays should be shortened to make up for lost time.
So like you I’ve decided that the time has come to leave my profession. My house is up for sale and we’re going to downsize, so that DH and I can leave teaching (both currently secondary) and we can get by doing a bit of cover when we want to work. At the age of 40, this is a little earlier than planned and I’ll miss the children, but that’s all I’ll miss

Online only is really pretty tough for more than a short period. The school timetable on a machine is depressing.

But this new covid variant (some calling it the British strain already ) is apparently likely to put the r rate up by 0.4 to 0.9.

How can that be ignored?

I always favoured blended learning aka part-time school as allowing some teacher-pupil f2f time and distancing.

Closing schools brings R down by 0.4 - we might need to do this.

We are really in a bad spot. I think we have to get to New Year and see what more we know.

I am planning for more disruption not less in 2021.

I'm not for shorter holidays just would be nice to have some normal teaching apart from online.But yes some teachers will no doubt leave.I work in early years, been working throughout but I can't keep watching my dd mental health fail whilst shes at home every day and im never there.Sometimes you gotta do what's right for you.

I just want to say how very sorry to read of teachers leaving. I don't blame you but I'm saddened to read it. Thank you for all the teaching you did do

No schools should be closed. I am a secondary school teacher and have seen at first hand the damage done by the closure in the summer term. I am resigned to the fact that we shall have one week of online teaching for most of the school in the first week back and exam classes in, but so hope it will not extend beyond that.

Remote working is nothing like face to face teaching and I am far more worried about my secondary school child’s education right now than my primary school child’s, she has longer until key exams. However ALL children need a proper education. This is not about what is best from a childcare perspective, we need a solution that protects all of their education. I would far rather a week in, week out for all children so they are all able to distance and all get the same opportunities than sell certain children age groups under a bus. They have lost nearly a year already, they can’t afford to lose anymore.