Would it help to close secondary schools?

[allthesharks]

While the news today is disappointing for many, I was incredibly worried about the likely surge of cases in schools when they go back in January. Hopefully, that won't be quite as extreme now that so many people won't be mixing (although I'm not naaive enough to think that there are people who will still ignore the rules). But there will still be a steady increase in cases once schools have been back for a few weeks and I had the following thought:

Would it be beneficial to close all secondary schools? And then spread primary aged children out, using the class rooms in secondary schools. Children aged 11-16 are more likely to be able to learn remotely and to not be such a hindrance for a parent who needs to work from home (not taking in to account SEN). I'm not suggesting that an 11 year old could be completely self sufficient for a day, however if a parent said "I have a meeting and I need you to not disturb me for the next hour unless it's a real emergency", I think an 11 year old could manage that.

That would then free up secondary school premises for primary children to decant to. If, for example, all junior classes moved to a secondary school building, then the primary school building could be used to halve the classes and space children out and the same could be done with the junior children in the secondary school building. In terms of teaching, there's obviously the issue of staffing. But LSAs could take half the class (I'm working on the basis that each primary class has at least one LSA, which is the case in my partner's primary school) and the teacher take the other half. They could then use zoom for the teacher to go through the learning objective for the half of the class not with them and the LSA would be there to ensure they are paying attention/understand what to do etc. The LSA could also be in contact with the teacher to ask for any clarification/assistance as required.

While this wouldn't be an ideal scenario, I feel it would be better than having all schools close again and have primary age children learning remotely while their parents also need to work. The government could even temporarily change the curriculum to only focus on Maths and English which is all they test children on at KS1 and KS2 level and then have other lessons available for remote learning. This would mean children would only need to be at school 3/4 days a week and give the teachers the opportunity for PPA. Although I appreciate this would cause an issue for parents who need to work. But again, less of an issue than if we went in to a full lockdown with children at home full time.

I don't know. Maybe there's a massive flaw in this idea that I haven't considered, and I would be happy to hear what it is. I just feel that the government have gone for an all or nothing approach and there must be some middle ground.

@EmmanuelleMakro

No schools should be closed. I am a secondary school teacher and have seen at first hand the damage done by the closure in the summer term. I am resigned to the fact that we shall have one week of online teaching for most of the school in the first week back and exam classes in, but so hope it will not extend beyond that.

Even if the virus is completely out of control again?

This new strain changes things. You can't get a test back fast enough to interrupt transmission chains if it is faster to spread.

We are facing a very serious time - potentially more serious than at the beginning as the new strain is worse as it spreads quicker.

I don't want schools closed but at some point we have to face the reality it might be needed.

And if cases become more rampant, it's going to take even longer to get results back - there's been a huge surge in delayed results this last week or so, so we've have dozens of children mingling in school and out who shouldn't because a peer's positive result has taken so long to come back at the end of term.

This is only going to get worse.

We could manage a month at home during term time but what would be more sustainable is part time, so maybe one day a week in school and then the rest at home, or one week in three?

@Piggyinblankets

My 12 and 14 yr old were left alone all day every day for months on end before while we were out at work. 12 yr old definitely can not motivate himself to work on line. His behaviour deteriorated as did both their mental health

Out of interest , why didn't you send them in to school since you are both keyworkers?

because, initially like many people, we didnt realise how long the situation would last! When we thought it would only be a couple of/a few weeks I decided that they would both be safe enough at home and that it was the responsible thing to do to keep them off to ease the burden on schools and to save spaces for those that really needed it. We did actually send the 12 yr old in to the keyowrker provision for the last 3 weeks of term because the situation had become unmanageable tbh If there was suitable keyworker provision this time round we would definitely use it from the outset, at least for the 12 yr old. I would feel for other parents though that had to keep working out of the home but couldnt access any provision

It would help reduce transmission.

No ! They need to be in school with their teachers and friends. They cannot see each other outside of school and have been lonely since March.

Ffs, @SomelikeitHoth, have you missed the fact that it's kids in schools "with their friends" that has been hugely instrumental in driving the infection rates up to the levels they're currently at?

No one wants the bloody schools to close (to f2f teaching, not education, as it will have to move online), least of all teachers, because it makes the job several times harder than it is already, but these are unprecedented times and we HAVE to act.

No.
What do you expect children to do who come from neglectful or abusive homes?

I think face to face school education is vital and even more important than public health considerations.

I'd like children removed from abusive homes -wouldn't you?

Norris and friends said virus doesn’t spread in schools.that’s why staff aren’t allowed to wear Ppe.

The OP asked if it would help. I think the answer in terms of covid spread is no one knows. It is certainly true that cases plummeted in lockdown 2 while schools were still open. They also went down a lot in tier 3 areas with the schools open. But it's also true that numbers started going back up in some places before the end of the lockdown. We are told this is because of the new strain. So will numbers still go down in tier 3 areas with schools open? I don't know.

And... Will they go down in tier 3 areas with schools shut? I still don't know.

I can only think of my child's future . He is in year 10 with some SEN (mainstream) and cannot catch up after losing so much time off. When this all blows over and we are back to normal he will be entering the job market. No one will care or understand why his grades are low.

@notevenat20: "I think the answer in terms of covid spread is no one knows."

I think you'll find that everyone does know. And the answer is, yes, it DOES spread in schools, and therefore closing them (to face to face teaching on-site) would help minimise spread.

In answer to the original question - yes.

If this transmits more easily amongst children, even more staff will be off. We need to get school staff vaccinated so that schooling can continue less interrupted.

The secondaries around here are shut for 1 extra week to all but years 11 & 13 and then they are bringing in testing, my eldest DD is extremely distrustful about it just being a week and doesn’t want to be off again at all.

@Feministicon, Yes, that's the Government line. But whether it transpires to be just that one week is anyone's guess. As Hancock said this morning on the Andrew Marr show, if he's learnt anything during this pandemic, it's to never say never.

Is it fair to sacrifice our young people's future, education and mental health for our old and vulnerable? That is the stark choice facing us.

I think you'll find that everyone does know. And the answer is, yes, it DOES spread in schools, and therefore closing them (to face to face teaching on-site) would help minimise spread.

It is just not clear. Let me try to explain some confounding factors. To be clear, I don't know what the right answer is:

• Secondary school children not in school may socialise with their friends during the school day. And/or they might decide that after being stuck at home all day they need to go out with their friends. They may go round to their friends' houses and hang out there too.
• School teachers may similarly socialise more after being stuck at home all day teaching at home.
• It may that the majority of infection happens outside of schools and so removing this as a source has little effect. It is likewise possible that people who are infected by children are likely to be infected by an adult in any case .

Primary school kids can manage with home learning, reciting tables, simple sums and learning to read that ANY parent can manage, and if they can't they shouldn't be parents. Utterly stupid idea. Our rprimar yage children have years to 'catch up' with missed learning, our secondary school age children don't.

My DS is year 6.i cant make head nor tail of his grammar, and I got an A and B in my English GCSEs. We didn't do any grammar at school, at all in the 1980s and 90s, and I wouldnt know a subordinate clause if it smacked me in the face. I'm not sure why this makes me an inferior parent!!

Sadly yes, I think it would. I would be sad for my daughter and her peers though.

Havent RTFT but can any teachers say what their ideal solution would be with measures that could be readily available
There have been some very vocal teachers on here saying (what any intelligent adult probably already knows) that schools are not covid secure and infections are spreading wildly in schools.i have no reason not to believe them and it seems obvious when all the 2m rules and wear masks seem to be irrelevant in school......but they dont want online teaching. What is the answer....where kids are still educated (which I think everyone wants?) I know the government are useless but even a labour gov couldnt conjure up bigger ,more well ventilated classrooms or reduce class sizes to 10 overnight. I'm not trying to be goady I just want to understand what other options there are.

Yes it will help. A lot.

Cases are much lower in primary. Secondaries are going to have to shut. There really isn't anyway around it. Funny we aren't seeing any data on private vs state schools....