Would it help to close secondary schools?

[allthesharks]

While the news today is disappointing for many, I was incredibly worried about the likely surge of cases in schools when they go back in January. Hopefully, that won't be quite as extreme now that so many people won't be mixing (although I'm not naaive enough to think that there are people who will still ignore the rules). But there will still be a steady increase in cases once schools have been back for a few weeks and I had the following thought:

Would it be beneficial to close all secondary schools? And then spread primary aged children out, using the class rooms in secondary schools. Children aged 11-16 are more likely to be able to learn remotely and to not be such a hindrance for a parent who needs to work from home (not taking in to account SEN). I'm not suggesting that an 11 year old could be completely self sufficient for a day, however if a parent said "I have a meeting and I need you to not disturb me for the next hour unless it's a real emergency", I think an 11 year old could manage that.

That would then free up secondary school premises for primary children to decant to. If, for example, all junior classes moved to a secondary school building, then the primary school building could be used to halve the classes and space children out and the same could be done with the junior children in the secondary school building. In terms of teaching, there's obviously the issue of staffing. But LSAs could take half the class (I'm working on the basis that each primary class has at least one LSA, which is the case in my partner's primary school) and the teacher take the other half. They could then use zoom for the teacher to go through the learning objective for the half of the class not with them and the LSA would be there to ensure they are paying attention/understand what to do etc. The LSA could also be in contact with the teacher to ask for any clarification/assistance as required.

While this wouldn't be an ideal scenario, I feel it would be better than having all schools close again and have primary age children learning remotely while their parents also need to work. The government could even temporarily change the curriculum to only focus on Maths and English which is all they test children on at KS1 and KS2 level and then have other lessons available for remote learning. This would mean children would only need to be at school 3/4 days a week and give the teachers the opportunity for PPA. Although I appreciate this would cause an issue for parents who need to work. But again, less of an issue than if we went in to a full lockdown with children at home full time.

I don't know. Maybe there's a massive flaw in this idea that I haven't considered, and I would be happy to hear what it is. I just feel that the government have gone for an all or nothing approach and there must be some middle ground.

@TheListeners When my DP has set or recorded lessons he has done so at home. My DCs teachers did the same. Not ideal but it was the only option in the first lockdown.

@glowibgorb That's interesting to know that a similar system has already been used and, in your opinion, has worked well. It might be something that could only work in some areas if logistics allowed, but even that would help. I suppose the difficulty is that while your DD is thriving others might be really struggling even though they're in the same school.

I'd be fucked if they shut the schools again. I was furloughed from March to September so it wasn't an issue last time however my employer has made redundancies since and whilst I was lucky enough to keep my job there isn't any longer any capacity to furlough me again.

Has wearing masks full time during the school day been introduced in secondary schools in the U.K. yet?

The spike in cases in Tier 4 is from 11-18 year olds, so yes it should be remote learning only in these areas until spring at least.

@inniu I don't believe so. The last I heard was that pupils had to wear face masks when moving between classes in the corridor. I could be wrong though.

@Inniu

Has wearing masks full time during the school day been introduced in secondary schools in the U.K. yet?

Most 4th -6th year in Scotland have been wearing masks at all times indoors. Not sure if you meant the UK that includes Scotland, or the one that doesn't, though.

LSAs are employed to firstly support a child with an EHCP, often the childs needs are quite high . To expect LSAs to continuously look after half a class and their named child seems a big ask . LSAs get paid less than HLTAs and most schools are already understaffed as it is . The idea of smaller class sizes is good in theory but really not sure how deliverable it is .
Many parents are not able to work from home or may work in a school themselves so there would a childcare issue for them.

Not worked in a primary in the past 10 years that has anything close to a TA per class, and of the TAs I've worked with not all would be anywhere capable of teaching half a class (not a problem because that isn't their job role. Some would be more than capable).

Also I disagree completely parents are capable of teaching the curriculum. I teach in a middle class area with lots of parents in professional jobs and, aside from the time issue, they struggled with how to actually teach. Phonics was particularly tricky, but so was writing across the school. The quality of work on the whole was much poorer than what children produce in class. Parents are always surprised at what is expected on the curriculum and I just don't think realise the standard their child should be reaching. EGPS even by Y4 (past perfect tense etc) is beyond many parents. Again, that's fine, it's not their job to know that normally, but it's not true that parents can easily replicate what's taught in schools. I know mumsnet is full of parents saying their schools provided terrible online learning, but I produced as close as I could to what children would do in school and by the end fewer than 20% were completing it all.

I think that suspending fines for children not in school and taking attendance off the ofsted assessment would be a start. We do not want any of our dc to lose their school place so would not deregister. One needs to be in school (exam year). One could work effectively at home but would be happier in school. One would be happy to stay home for a month or two and we could support their learning. Just introducing this option would mean that those dc who could be supported at home for a while and there could be more social distancing at school for those who need to be in.

I would have to consider leaving my job if secondary schools shut again. I'm a doctor, dh is a teacher. My 12 and 14 yr old were left alone all day every day for months on end before while we were out at work. 12 yr old definitely can not motivate himself to work on line. His behaviour deteriorated as did both their mental health. No way we could survive that again as a family without making drastic changes.

I'm a teacher and think we are at the point we need to do planned online learning for secondary, either a month online with a proper national lockdown to get things under control, or plan for a 2 week on, 2 week off rota to reduce numbers onsite for at least the next halfterm.
It's not ideal, and it's more work for us but it is better than moving primaries online (childcare, harder to work independently) and it is better for the kids' education for it to be planned rather than the current unplanned isolation.
I taught a full online timetable in the summer term and my pupils coped really well. If we could add to that being able to book a slot with a teacher to come in for extra help for those struggling we could make this work. I just can't see any other way to stop numbers skyrocketing.

@junglepie yes, I think years 7 and 8 with two essential worker parents would need to come in. Laptop and headphones to join their different classes in small actual bubbles with a TA in charge. And the government needs to actually put some funding into this for tech for kids who don't have it!

@Inniu

Has wearing masks full time during the school day been introduced in secondary schools in the U.K. yet?

No-only in corridors.

Secondary schools serve lots of primary schools though, so you would end up with a similar number of kids in the secondary school building (unless some, eg infants) stay in the primary school building.

Secondary schools are also not really set up for primary age kids in terms of facilities - I'm not sure it would be possible to teach young children in a science or DT room.

You'd also be mixing lots of adults and kids who wouldn't otherwise mix.

Secondary schools would also still need to provide a space for key workers children, vulnerable children, those with SEN needs and so on - this could be quite a lot of students in some schools.

I can see the benefits but I don't think it's as straightforward as you are imagining.

I do think we have to stop prioritising childcare for non-keyworker parents over stopping the spread of the virus though. Yes, their careers may suffer, but at the moment a lot of people are taking a financial hit on their behalf who don't directly benefit from schools being open.

As a secondary school teacher, I would ask why my students had to take that hit on your behalf.

Personally I think some kind of rota system combined with mass testing would be better. One week on, one week off would motivate a lot more children to work at home, and be better from a safeguarding point of view.

It would help reduce the virus spread.

It won't help dcs, especially primary and exam year students. Or parents who work around school. Or parents that don't work, or wfh or study as well. Or those that don't have a nice home, or a safe one.

Hopefully the vaccine will help protect the most vulnerable and this will drive down risks to that sector. But when there are 3 million ecv vs 8 million school aged children who aren't going to get ill particularly you have to balance the risk to the majority. Plus if you close primary school many dcs are going to end up seeing more of grandparents which then puts those gps at greater risk.

It's not easy to balance. I suspect secondaries will be the first to switch to online education, because then it's still schools open. I've one in year 12 who will study online. And 1 in year 2 who absolutely needs to be in school to learn.

Yes op it's absolutely do able and many many schools went on line seemlessly days after lock Down after brief teaching on various tech.
Others are still learning that tech?
Things that are free like Google meet or Google hangouts, can be used to teach and many places have used them to teach.

If a school has a good absentee check up then there is no reason that can't Happen on line. You can even see the pupils working on line so really, once the teacher have given as per normal the initial instructions, the teacher can then see if the pupils are in their work on line and what they are typing.

So in a well-run school with tight set ups, there are tech tools to make sure all pupils are learning and working as normal. And these very measures were carried out effectively over the first lock down.

Imagine how utterly frustrating it was to see some settings doing it so well and training teachers successfully in days on it, with other places insisting that they needed funding for said training and couldn't do it.

I'm also wondering about universities. I'm half way through a foundation year and 95% of it has been online this year, I suspect 100% of it will be online until Easter at least.

My 12 and 14 yr old were left alone all day every day for months on end before while we were out at work. 12 yr old definitely can not motivate himself to work on line. His behaviour deteriorated as did both their mental health

Out of interest , why didn't you send them in to school since you are both keyworkers?

Primary age children had a huge spike in cases at the start of December. We need to stop acting like they can't spread it - especially the new strain.

I mean they could close schools throughout January and February, it's not like they didn't do it before.... and let's face it schools were opened up at the wrong time, autumn going into winter was asking for trouble. It would have been far safer for the kids to be back this summer!

So maybe get a significant more people vaccinated, drive the infection rate down and the kids go back in March ready for spring. The lost 7 weeks from January and February can be made up by cutting down the Easter break, scrap the May half term and have a 2-3 week summer holiday in August / September. I don't say this lightly, my 5 year old is thriving being back at school, I work in a school and would not want to lose any of the summer but surely the danger will be much less in the warmer months / have had more vaccinations. Hell, even Saturday schooling could be introduced so that the summer holidays can be longer.

Just seen an article saying to focus the vaccine on the South East to try and squash it

One day, they don't need to loose 2 months of teaching they can be taught on line.

I think it’s now being spread across the country due to the exodus out of London last night.

The plan is lovely but won’t work. Secondary school teachers can’t pick up primary kids. They are struggling to keep up now. And also struggled to keep up in lockdown despite most people on here thinking they did nothing.

They’ll be preparing and setting stuff for thier own classes.

Last year l was meant to be working 3 days a week. During lockdown l was doing 5.

The other problem with secondary schools and primary schools is trivial things like equipment. Secondary kids need bigger chairs than primary kids and take tables and vice verses. Plus in a primary school it is impossible to social distance for the infant and lower juniors so that is a bit of a redundant point.

The problem is most definitely senior schools. We need to close them all for the first 2-3 weeks in January and instead of home learning take a week off the Easter holiday and a week or two of the summer holidays. Why do we need to close them? Because even the schools that haven't had a case will have students going to visit family's over Christmas. And even if they don't then a lot will go see a friend or two people are sick of following the rules because the government have made it almost impossible with their indecision and back tracking. Every school in the uk will have had a case by mid feb.