Would it help to close secondary schools?

[allthesharks]

While the news today is disappointing for many, I was incredibly worried about the likely surge of cases in schools when they go back in January. Hopefully, that won't be quite as extreme now that so many people won't be mixing (although I'm not naaive enough to think that there are people who will still ignore the rules). But there will still be a steady increase in cases once schools have been back for a few weeks and I had the following thought:

Would it be beneficial to close all secondary schools? And then spread primary aged children out, using the class rooms in secondary schools. Children aged 11-16 are more likely to be able to learn remotely and to not be such a hindrance for a parent who needs to work from home (not taking in to account SEN). I'm not suggesting that an 11 year old could be completely self sufficient for a day, however if a parent said "I have a meeting and I need you to not disturb me for the next hour unless it's a real emergency", I think an 11 year old could manage that.

That would then free up secondary school premises for primary children to decant to. If, for example, all junior classes moved to a secondary school building, then the primary school building could be used to halve the classes and space children out and the same could be done with the junior children in the secondary school building. In terms of teaching, there's obviously the issue of staffing. But LSAs could take half the class (I'm working on the basis that each primary class has at least one LSA, which is the case in my partner's primary school) and the teacher take the other half. They could then use zoom for the teacher to go through the learning objective for the half of the class not with them and the LSA would be there to ensure they are paying attention/understand what to do etc. The LSA could also be in contact with the teacher to ask for any clarification/assistance as required.

While this wouldn't be an ideal scenario, I feel it would be better than having all schools close again and have primary age children learning remotely while their parents also need to work. The government could even temporarily change the curriculum to only focus on Maths and English which is all they test children on at KS1 and KS2 level and then have other lessons available for remote learning. This would mean children would only need to be at school 3/4 days a week and give the teachers the opportunity for PPA. Although I appreciate this would cause an issue for parents who need to work. But again, less of an issue than if we went in to a full lockdown with children at home full time.

I don't know. Maybe there's a massive flaw in this idea that I haven't considered, and I would be happy to hear what it is. I just feel that the government have gone for an all or nothing approach and there must be some middle ground.

It’s all really unclear. The first question is what are secondary school children going to be doing if they can’t go to school. Will they a) socialise in the school day or b) feel they need to go out socialising after school hours because they have been stuck at home all day?

@TheRubyRedshoes

Just seen an article saying to focus the vaccine on the South East to try and squash it

Really-that’s interesting! Where did you see that?

As PP have said, there simply aren't enough school staff to cover splitting classes into smaller groups, even if there was the space. And most LSA's are not equipped to teach full-time (nor should they be as it isn't their job).

It's very difficult to know. Closing schools would undoubtedly slow the spread a lot (if other restrictions also remained in place). If it could be effective with a shirt period of closure (eg 3 weeks) it would be much better than the extremely disruptive situation of the Autumn term with pupils in and out of school. Some kids will have had multiple isolations while others may have had none, yet all are currently expected to sit the same exams at the end of the year.
However, if they closed for a short time and the virus just began spreading again as soon as they went back, it would mean continued disruption on top of closure so it's hard to know what is best.

At the very least secondary pupils and teachers need to be in masks at all times though. It's crazy that this straightforward step that has been implemented in most schools that are open around the world still isn't in place here.

@TheRubyRedshoes

One day, they don't need to loose 2 months of teaching they can be taught on line.

Teaching online isn't always suitable for every child especially younger children and it would only widen the gap between private and state schools. If the virus is so bad and they want to save as many lives as possible, use January and February to vaccinate as many people as possible and keep the infection rate down. The kids would not lose this education, it would be added on in its entirety during spring/summer. Working parents should be offered support / furlough if they need to be at home with young children. Teenagers should be allowed to meet up outside with no more than two others so they aren't completely stuck at home.

@notevenat20

It’s all really unclear. The first question is what are secondary school children going to be doing if they can’t go to school. Will they a) socialise in the school day or b) feel they need to go out socialising after school hours because they have been stuck at home all day?

Attendance in online lessons is monitored, although I suppose that won't stop those who really intend to skip lessons and socialise. At least being January it limits the opportunity for after-school socialising as it is likely to be cold and dark.

@StoopDragon

Secondary school children need face to face teaching, they cannot self motivate to remote learn like Uni age children can/should. Primary school kids can manage with home learning, reciting tables, simple sums and learning to read that ANY parent can manage, and if they can't they shouldn't be parents. Utterly stupid idea. Our rprimar yage children have years to 'catch up' with missed learning, our secondary school age children don't.

I agree with this

I hope they can keep things open for exam years. I’d have thought blended learning where there is some contact during the week in bubbles could theoretically work abs give some social contact. It would be very hard even at secondary to go back to full online learning

I just don’t think it’s viable at all for primary. I’ve got a reception aged child and did two weeks when her bubble broke. The provision was good but took at least 2-3 hours a day and needed a parent. Combining that with work was really hard and my daughter lost a lot of enthusiasm by the end. Reception is meant to be play and learning with peers.

We are lucky that we have a lot of space at our primary and the children have been outside a lot. There would be no point trying to ship them to our local secondary.

My DD goes to a school which has capacity for twice the number of pupils it has. She is now learning in a classrooms which previously were left empty and in school has no contact with anyone from other year groups as corridors aren't shared etc. Yet I've had several emails this week informing me of positive cases in the school. In nit convinced spreading pupils out over different sites is the answer.

I worked at a different school during lockdown 1. While it was fun for the children to explore a new playground, there would be logistical hell moving resources from one school to another for a large amount of children for a relatively short space of time.

Attendance in online lessons is monitored, although I suppose that won't stop those who really intend to skip lessons and socialise. At least being January it limits the opportunity for after-school socialising as it is likely to be cold and dark.

I spent many years as a teenager getting up to no good in the cold and dark. I think that is part of being British :)

They will not close primaries until it is last resort, it causes a childcare nightmare and is massively detrimental to the economy. Primary children can’t even log in to online learning without help and can’t be left alone to get on with work. Rate in primary age are much lower than secondary because they close whole class bubbles after 1 confirmed case, do not travel to and from schools on buses, or hang around in groups together after school given that they are too young to be allowed out unaccompanied.

I have always thought that the point at which you close schools is the point at which you give up on the future of the country. But there is a scientific unknown about whether this new strain is more transmissible by children than the old strain.

If it is, then the govt is going to have to work out how to make online education work properly. They will also have to work out if closing schools actually reduces transmission overall. Closing schools is also a disaster for women who inevitably will have their careers damaged more than men.

Closing schools would help slow the spread of the virus, for sure.

It really wouldn't be good for our kids though. So I don't know what the answer is.

My y7 has had to repeatedly self-isolate this term. She's a bright kid but has lost motivation and confidence. She can't do the work without a lot of support at home. She's struggling without the company and interaction with her peers. I worry for her.

I do think we have to stop prioritising childcare for non-keyworker parents over stopping the spread of the virus though. Yes, their careers may suffer, but at the moment a lot of people are taking a financial hit on their behalf who don't directly benefit from schools being open.

This is a very good point. There are many parents saying that they will lose their jobs if schools close, but my childless friends own a pub and they worked so hard to make it Covid secure, but have been paying the price of ‘keeping schools in at all costs’.
My friends are devastated, broke, struggling and suffering, in order to keep schools open, when kids don’t matter to them personally.

I think in tier 4 at least schools should close until teaching and school staff are vaccinated.

It's just rude to expect teachers, whom we should all value, to spend their working day in a petridish that is a classroom.

An educated population is what will fund our pensions and make the future of the country. They will also be the people developing medicines and vaccines in the future. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss its importance.

I don’t think anyone is ‘dismissing the importance’ but why should be children who have no voice and their families be placed in the situation where the institutions cause the highest number of cases in the U.K.

Why is this being totally ignored and written out?

I've said this from the very start; we need a rota system. Especially in secondary schools.

The government suggested this themselves when they introduced the school tier system and we spent hundreds of man hours in planning it. We genuinely have a superb system worked out that still allows our vulnerable, younger and even keyworker students to be in full time. It allows our staff time to plan engaging lessons for the weeks 'on' and to set challenging but accessible practice and consolidation work on the weeks off.

We haven't had all of the school in since the middle of September and have now reached over 100 student cases, 10s of staff and a small number of staff and students hospitalised. 1 student lost a parent in November (bringing our bereaved student total, those living with the person who has died, to 9).

We have 110ish students in year 12 and 13 with exams in January; how has months of a pathetic, useless government helped them? It hasn't, as we now have more and more students with anxiety and related mental health problems, with several suicide attempts. These students will sit their exams against those who have had much less disruption either due to geographical chance or the fact they are at a separate college, of which the local ones have been on rotas since September and have had very few cases. Some of our students have had 6/7 weeks of isolation this term.

I know the OP started with suggesting the use of LSAs; my school of over 2000 had 12 in March. 5 did not return in September, another 4 had left by Christmas and we can't recruit right now as any advert on only has a handful of unsuitable applicants.

We need a rota until the spring; it is the only way we can do this.

Rant over. I've been helping my head with contact tracing this morning rather than baking with my own daughters and this bollocks is really starting to grind me down.

I am a “non key worker”. I am on the leadership team of a FTSE100 business, which is a company that many of your pensions will be invested in and which pays a shitload of tax every year.

Do we just let all these commercial companies go to the wall because they are not “key”? What kind of country do you think we will be living in after this pandemic is over if we have no economy left?

ceeveebee
what kind of country do you think we will be living in...

Quite frankly a smaller one due to many more deaths.

There needs to be more joined up thinking. Schools are expected 'to make this work', be creative, be solution focussed at the drop of a hat, what about large companies, why can't they?

Why isn't the government putting blended learning in place combined with an expectation from employers that they also need to adapt and recognise the needs of parents within the workforce.

Schools cannot keep children safe and learning without wider support.

I rather think the business se that will go to the wall are in hospitality and the leisure and arts sector.

The very industry that are being buggered by constant closures because the government will not countenance a full lockdown even for a firebreak.

Errr posters know noone is talking about closing schools forever right? Just going online for a few weeks or part time?

But not all companies are struggling.

Online shopping and food providers are booming. Some will go to the wall, some will survive, new ones will arrive.

I don’t think the economy is as bleak as it’s painted to be.

I do think however hospitality has been shafted.

LSA are used to support those with send. If they are used for teaching then pupils with send will lose their support.
There are already issues this term with pupils with send ( even those with specifically funded 1:1 support) being put on part time timetables or told to stay home and doing what you suggest would make this problem even worse.

The person that said the government need to stop prioritising childcare for none key workers. I'm not a key worker, DH is. I am however the breadwinner. DH wage would not cover our outgoings whereas mine would just about. So if the schools are closed it would be my keyworker husband who would be the one not going to work. When I think of relatives and friends of mine with a keyworker, on most occasions it is the non keyworker who earns the higher wage so if we went along the lines of not offering childcare for non keyworkers it would most likely result in a lot of keyworkers not going to work. I would love to see how that will impact the country.

My secoundary age dd has been left alone so much this year as I work. In theory she is old enough but to be left alone all day at only 13 is still hard for her and is now affecting her mental health.If secoundary schools are to continue shutting next year I will quit my job and go on benefits. Ironically I work in early years so look after others children whilst my own dd is left alone.Everyone seems to assume it's ok to leave secondary school children to get on with it as long as primary can keep open. To me it's not fair and wrong to assume that parents are happy to leave their secoundary age kids at home alone all day.