Will we be able to refuse treatment from NHS staff who refuse the vaccine?

[lunar1]

I don't mean now, but a few months down the line when they have all had the opportunity to be vaccinated.

DH had his first dose this morning, but there are many staff refusing. Given that it's going to be a long time before the majority of us are vaccinated, having treatment from vaccinated professionals seems a good way to reduce risks.

What rights does anyone think we will have regarding treatment?

As a clinical manager, the only way I know who in my team has had the flu jab is if they're before or after me in the queue. I don't get told. I presume the people I line manage have had a Hep B jab, because they're all cleared for EPPs, but all I get told by Occy Health is that they're cleared. I never get the details of what vaccinations they have or have not had, just that they're cleared to see patients. I can't imagine for a moment I'm going to get a list of who in my team has had the Covid jab.

So if a patient phoned up asking for a clinician who had had the Covid 19 vaccine my response - totally honestly - would be, "I'm sorry, I don't have that information." Clearly it would be for the patient to decide whether they still wanted to go ahead with the appointment or not.

@RosesAndHellebores your suggestion is really horrible - I haven’t had a sick day in over 5 years (Touch wood). I find your tone quite unpleasant- almost suggesting we’re in the nhs for benefits

This has got to be the worst year ever to be an NHS worker.
Seen so many threads complaining about the inadequacy of services etc. These things may be true but cut us some slack so many of us have been ill, we are short staffed and were on the bones of our arses anyway. Now our bodies are public property too.
We are human beings who are over worked, carrying a shed load of risk, on shit pay and now this.
Oh and most of us probably could work in the private sector if we chose to.

@DayBath I work in a very specialist area, manage a team, we absolutely will not have capacity for separate clinics and we wouldn’t invest any time in this. Patients can choose to go to another hospital if they wish.

@Motorina

As a clinical manager, the only way I know who in my team has had the flu jab is if they're before or after me in the queue. I don't get told. I presume the people I line manage have had a Hep B jab, because they're all cleared for EPPs, but all I get told by Occy Health is that they're cleared. I never get the details of what vaccinations they have or have not had, just that they're cleared to see patients. I can't imagine for a moment I'm going to get a list of who in my team has had the Covid jab.

So if a patient phoned up asking for a clinician who had had the Covid 19 vaccine my response - totally honestly - would be, "I'm sorry, I don't have that information." Clearly it would be for the patient to decide whether they still wanted to go ahead with the appointment or not.

We have to report our flu vaccinations to our line manager. Even if they've been done in a high street pharmacy because we didn't want to wait ages for the Trust to sort it out. So in our Trust it's different and managers absolutely know which staff have and haven't been vaccinated each year. They do it to collect stats, they're constantly sending out Trust wide emails with the current percentage of uptake and trying to urge everyone to get it done to reach the goal percentage.

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@BungleandGeorge are you speaking for all of the public sector there? I suspect not. Also one episode of sickness can last for more than a year.[/quote]
Anyone on long term sick is subject to disciplinary procedures and dismissal. Contractural benefits are between employer and employee whoever you work for, I don’t quite see your point. If you’re saying we should stand in judgement maybe we should remove ssp for anyone who isn’t vaccinated/ drinks too much/ doesn’t take their medication/ smokes/ is overweight/ doesn’t attend reviews/ travels abroad and catches something that isn’t endemic here. List goes on, you can’t start ‘judging’ whether an illness is self inflicted basically

[quote Pomegranatespompom]@DayBath I work in a very specialist area, manage a team, we absolutely will not have capacity for separate clinics and we wouldn’t invest any time in this. Patients can choose to go to another hospital if they wish.[/quote]
I wasn't suggesting separate clinics run exclusively by vaccinated staff. I'm saying each clinic stream when booking has an allocated HCP, so the booking office can simply choose the clinic that happens to be hosted by a vaccinated team member. If you're saying there's literally only one doctor and they won't ever be vaccinated then yes in that very specific example patients will have to relocate, and that's a choice they should be allowed to make.

@Pomegranatespompom I'm sorry that's your interpretation. I am merely stating a fact. My institution offers free flu jabs annually. The take up is about 15%. I see no reason why a member of staff has full pay for two weeks flu related absence, funded by taxation, when they had the opportunity to have a free, preventative jab. If they chose not to have it as far as I am concerned they have abdicated their right to receive full pay for an avoidable illness/absence.

@Motorina

As a clinical manager, the only way I know who in my team has had the flu jab is if they're before or after me in the queue. I don't get told. I presume the people I line manage have had a Hep B jab, because they're all cleared for EPPs, but all I get told by Occy Health is that they're cleared. I never get the details of what vaccinations they have or have not had, just that they're cleared to see patients. I can't imagine for a moment I'm going to get a list of who in my team has had the Covid jab.

So if a patient phoned up asking for a clinician who had had the Covid 19 vaccine my response - totally honestly - would be, "I'm sorry, I don't have that information." Clearly it would be for the patient to decide whether they still wanted to go ahead with the appointment or not.

Exactly, It goes through occupational health or possibly HR, not your manager unless you choose to give them the information.

@RosesAndHellebores there may be many reasons - staff don’t have to disclose why they can’t have a jab. This doesn’t mean they lose their employment rights - thankfully.

Well, it’s the NHS. If it’s a non-urgent problem, you would delay your own treatment significantly as presumably you’d go to the back of the waiting list! They won’t be in a rush to find you a vaccinated staff member. I’m guessing you’d be re-referred etc.

Even if it is urgent, perhaps they don’t have the staff to unnecessarily cover the non-vaccinated staff like this for emergency or specialist care.

@DayBath patients don’t have the right to that information. We don’t have the time to filter - they either come or don’t. We’ll just move someone else up the list.

My manager wont know why I'm not having the vaccine. Only Occ Health will. I hardly want my manager to know I am TTC!

@sofiaaaaaa

Well, it’s the NHS. If it’s a non-urgent problem, you would delay your own treatment significantly as presumably you’d go to the back of the waiting list! They won’t be in a rush to find you a vaccinated staff member. I’m guessing you’d be re-referred etc.

Even if it is urgent, perhaps they don’t have the staff to unnecessarily cover the non-vaccinated staff like this for emergency or specialist care.

Uptake of the vaccine from NHS staff is going to be quite high. It will be harder to find a non-vaccinated doctor than a vaccinated one once the full program has rolled out. HCPs are generally quite trusting of medical science, there will be a few with doubts and some others who aren't able to have it for medical reasons but it will be much more common for staff to have been vaccinated by the end of 2021.

I quite agree with that @pomegranatespompom. Obviously if people have a clinical reason not to vaccinate they should not. Just as if they have a clinical reason to be absent during the pandemic they should be. The Equality Act 2010 must absolutely be observed.

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@Pomegranatespompom I'm sorry that's your interpretation. I am merely stating a fact. My institution offers free flu jabs annually. The take up is about 15%. I see no reason why a member of staff has full pay for two weeks flu related absence, funded by taxation, when they had the opportunity to have a free, preventative jab. If they chose not to have it as far as I am concerned they have abdicated their right to receive full pay for an avoidable illness/absence.[/quote]
All vaccinations have side effects, you can’t force somebody to take on that risk if they don’t want to or it’s of little benefit to them. Flu vaccine is not even that effective. I’m not sure where you work that the take up
is only 15%, it’s much higher than that in the general public. Perhaps people are just not reporting their confidential medical history to line managers

What a ridiculous thread! Seriously you get wheeled into A&E having a heart attack, or breathing difficulties, or bleeding to death from some freak accident and you're going to start questioning the very people who are rushing to help you?
I very much doubt everyone vaccinated gets a chufty badge to wear with honour, so even if you do have the cheek to ask someone, you'll never ever know, if they do give you a yes or no answer, whether their answer is true or not

[quote Pomegranatespompom]@DayBath patients don’t have the right to that information. We don’t have the time to filter - they either come or don’t. We’ll just move someone else up the list.[/quote]
We filter for a lot of strange requests in my Trust, usually without any objections from clinic managers involved. Perhaps your Trust has less resources or the culture is just generally less accomodating of patients. Nobody said they have the right to the information, but there will be many HCPs who are willing to offer it.

@3littlewords

What a ridiculous thread! Seriously you get wheeled into A&E having a heart attack, or breathing difficulties, or bleeding to death from some freak accident and you're going to start questioning the very people who are rushing to help you? I very much doubt everyone vaccinated gets a chufty badge to wear with honour, so even if you do have the cheek to ask someone, you'll never ever know, if they do give you a yes or no answer, whether their answer is true or not

Not sure I've seen anyone saying they would ask vaccination status during a real emergency, this thread has been mostly about routine appointments unless I've missed something

@gypsywater surely it is your manager who refers you to OH via HR. If you are not able to fulfil your duties your manager needs to know why. The best possible support is usually in place because there are transparent channels of two way communication. May I gently suggest that if you do not communicate transparently with your manager it will be more difficult to support you in the workplace than otherwise.

Funny though how my HV told me all mothers should vaccinate their babies. Can you please explain to me shy HCP's should have more choice and autonomy than other humans and mothers

Oh we’re very accommodating of clinical need.

It would be career suicide for me to tell my manager I am TTC. I have just told her that I'm not able to have the vaccine currently for reasons I will discuss with OH. She accepted that no problem.

@Pomegranatespompom

Oh we’re very accommodating of clinical need.

Being highly vulnerable to covid is a clinical need.

Sorry not RTFT but I suspect we'll either hit herd immunity and lower (remove?) national covid precautions or we won't hit and it and won't remove them. So whether specific people are vaccinated may become irrelevant.

@gypsywater

It would be career suicide for me to tell my manager I am TTC. I have just told her that I'm not able to have the vaccine currently for reasons I will discuss with OH. She accepted that no problem.

Sorry if I've missed the context of this comment and it's aimed at someone else but I agree with you that you shouldn't have to give your reasons for not having the jab. The reasons why aren't really important to line management. But they may be required to collect stats on uptake which should just be a simple yes or no answer.