Will we be able to refuse treatment from NHS staff who refuse the vaccine?

[lunar1]

I don't mean now, but a few months down the line when they have all had the opportunity to be vaccinated.

DH had his first dose this morning, but there are many staff refusing. Given that it's going to be a long time before the majority of us are vaccinated, having treatment from vaccinated professionals seems a good way to reduce risks.

What rights does anyone think we will have regarding treatment?

Pfizer will have a very good idea if the vaccine prevents transmission from the primate trials and I think they would have tried to collect that data is they thought it would look good.

If I have understood this correctly you think Pfizer know that transmission will occur?

I don't see how that can be. We do already know that the vaccine produces a large antibody response. It's reasonable that it should last longer than the few months of 'normal' immunity.

There might still be some transmission if the virus is able to replicate in the mucosal membranes but there is no easy way for Pfizer to show definitively that transmission does/doesn't occur (and how much) without wide scale vaccination- lab test just don't cut it.

They only trialled for disease modification because that's easy to show efficacy quickly. The data on immunity is still being collected but will wait for larger data sets and peer reviewed papers.

The flu jab isn't mandatory for NHS staff and you can't tell in my local hospital which ones have and haven't had the jab, no badges at ours. It always pissed me off that you can't tell. The cold that finally finished off my grandfather was kindly given to him by his GP, who saw an entire days patients whilst coughing and spluttering. 2 months later he died from pneumonia, and before anyone suggests it was caught elsewhere he was housebound and didn't see anyone so he insisted that's where it came from. He cursed that stupid GP during his last days in hospital.

Hopefully now masks are commonplace HCPs will have the good grace to keep one on if they come to work with a cold.

“What rights does anyone think we will have regarding treatment?”

The same rights as the NHS staff have, which are none according to your view.

I personally wouldn't ask or refuse treatment, in our house it's DH that is vulnerable and he has had the vaccine. I once refused for my asthmatic ds to be treated by a nurse who was coughing and constantly blowing her nose when he was in A&E, otherwise I've never considered refusing treatment on any grounds.

It's inevitable that it will be added to the list of required immunisations when starting a job.

The care home my aunt is in sent an email saying all their staff are being vaccinated-I don't know if they have personally just all happened to agree, but they also said they are going to make it a requirement of hiring new staff as soon as is practical.

It's this email that got us talking about it last night, it definitely seems that they will be using their vaccine status to promote the home. I never speak to the staff now, I just get my three times a week slot to video call her.

I would love to be able to tell which staff have or haven't had the covid jab, but as you can't even tell whose had the flu jab I doubt they will be honest about it. If it was possible to tell I would certainly ask for a different clinician if I knew they could pass something on to me.

You can refuse treatment for any reason you wish, however ridiculous.

However, you have no entitlement at all to know any details about the medical history of any member of NHS staff. Nor should you be presumptuous enough to think that you have.

There can be valid reasons for not having the vaccine, or for having reservations about it. For example, it isn't yet recommended for pregnant or breastfeeding women as there is insufficient data about the effects on their babies.

Also, some people might have allergies to some of the ingredients (eggs etc.) so need to be cautious about having it.

If you have the vaccine when offered it you will have your own protection. You make your own decisions, they make theirs.

I am not NHS staff. I WILL be having the vaccine when I am offered it. If, however, I need any treatment for any of my health issues in the meantime I will NOT be making a scene about whether the person assigned to my treatment has had the Covid 19 vaccine.

Quite simply, their medical history is private to them and is none of my business

The flu vaccine badges (we have stickers) are just to promote awareness of the vaccine and encourage more uptake - they're not to identify who has had it so you can refuse to be treated by someone who hasn't.

If someone is breastfeeding, or pregnant/trying to concieve they will gave been adviser against the vaccine, I think peope with severe allergies are also being advised against the vaccine, so there are real reasons for some NHS staff not to have the vaccine, besides which you won't know who has and hasn't had it.

**by real reasons I didn't mean that it shouldn't be a choice but that some people are being told not to get it for a medical reason.

@donquixotedelamancha

Pfizer will have a very good idea if the vaccine prevents transmission from the primate trials and I think they would have tried to collect that data is they thought it would look good.

If I have understood this correctly you think Pfizer know that transmission will occur?

I don't see how that can be. We do already know that the vaccine produces a large antibody response. It's reasonable that it should last longer than the few months of 'normal' immunity.

There might still be some transmission if the virus is able to replicate in the mucosal membranes but there is no easy way for Pfizer to show definitively that transmission does/doesn't occur (and how much) without wide scale vaccination- lab test just don't cut it.

They only trialled for disease modification because that's easy to show efficacy quickly. The data on immunity is still being collected but will wait for larger data sets and peer reviewed papers.

Do you honestly think that they never left a vaccinated, viral challenged macaque in a room with some unexposed macaques?

You can refuse treatment for any reason you wish, however ridiculous. @Topseyt

It's not a ridiculous reason though. Covid is literally destroying our country right now, both in terms of economics, health outcomes and mental health due to lockdowns. I wouldn't call someone whose afraid of catching covid because they have serious co-morbidities "ridiculous". In any other walk of life we would call mitigation measures sensible (avoiding parties etc). So why is refusing treatment from someone who could pass it on considered a bad thing?

And yes there are legitimate reasons why HCPs may not be able to have the vaccine and that's fine. But it's also fine for people to want to make choices about their own health and request a different clinician if that's the case. Some people won't mind it and they can continue to be treated by the non vaccinated staff if that's their own preference.

@lunar1

they also said they are going to make it a requirement of hiring new staff as soon as is practical

It's likely they will struggle to recruit staff going forwards then.

Ecosse, is that you?

There will almost certainly be some jobs that require the vaccine (care homes probably), but I’m not sure if NHS will be one of them as it’s public sector.

Do you honestly think that they never left a vaccinated, viral challenged macaque in a room with some unexposed macaques?

No, I just don't think that standard of evidence is meaningful for demonstrating transmission at a population level. Nor do the MHRA, so there would be no point applying.

I'm sure that data is being collected (not least because I've heard the MHRA speak of it) but even if there had been no recorded transmission do far it would still be very limited evidence.

There was that study of one kid in spring who supposedly didn't pass the virus on which was held up as 'proving' children didn't transmit. At the same time population level studies were showing schools were the single biggest factor.

Small scale studies are indicative at best in epidemiology. We need to be patient and precautionary rather than guessing.

@donquixotedelamancha

Do you honestly think that they never left a vaccinated, viral challenged macaque in a room with some unexposed macaques?

No, I just don't think that standard of evidence is meaningful for demonstrating transmission at a population level. Nor do the MHRA, so there would be no point applying.

I'm sure that data is being collected (not least because I've heard the MHRA speak of it) but even if there had been no recorded transmission do far it would still be very limited evidence.

There was that study of one kid in spring who supposedly didn't pass the virus on which was held up as 'proving' children didn't transmit. At the same time population level studies were showing schools were the single biggest factor.

Small scale studies are indicative at best in epidemiology. We need to be patient and precautionary rather than guessing.

They haven't even tried to quantify transmission - they didn't even do any asymptomatic testing. They're also very keen to unblind and get their control arm vaccinated so it will be very difficult to tell how long immunity lasts or if the vaccine is less effective with new variants.

I’m NHS staff and I’m undecided about the vaccine.

Following our flu vaccine we get a circular sticker with a big tick on it and text that says “I’ve had my flu jab.”

I’m not sure how I’d feel if someone asked me if I’d had my flu jab (in the absence of a sticker) or how I’d feel if they refused treatment.

You can refuse treatment, that's your right to refuse!
However you cannot ask HCP for their vaccination history! I'm on the fence about getting this vaccine as I was want to ttc my 2nd child and it took me 2.5 years to conceive my first. We're advised not to get the vaccine if your ttc within 3 months of the second dose, pregnant or breastfeeding. Also it's not proved that once you have the vaccine that you can't transfer covid. It's for self protection.

No. What if the, say, nurse treating you was a breastfeeding mother who can't receive it because they've done no studies. Or pregnant or trying to conceive.
If you want to place those kind of demands, you need to pay for private medicine.

You wouldn’t be getting treatment from my work team if that’s the case. I don’t know anyone who’s volunteering to have it.

Why would you expect to know? It’s a private matter.

@Bubblemonkey

You wouldn’t be getting treatment from my work team if that’s the case. I don’t know anyone who’s volunteering to have it.

Same here, none of my colleagues want the Pfizer one. I was happy to have it when offered but due to history of severe allergic reaction, I can't. Hopefully I can have the Oxford/AZ one. We had a better nursing staff uptake for flu this year through, up to 80% from 40% (sample of 5).

So many people missing the point as raised above by previous poster
at the moment the vaccine has only been proven to stop you getting ill. There's no evidence about it stopping transmission yet

It doesn't matter if the HCP you are seeing has been vaccinated or not. If they have been vaccinated it protects them ONLY. It has no impact on you, as the patient, whatsoever.

@Metallicalover

You can refuse treatment, that's your right to refuse! However you cannot ask HCP for their vaccination history! I'm on the fence about getting this vaccine as I was want to ttc my 2nd child and it took me 2.5 years to conceive my first. We're advised not to get the vaccine if your ttc within 3 months of the second dose, pregnant or breastfeeding. Also it's not proved that once you have the vaccine that you can't transfer covid. It's for self protection.

You can ask anything you like, they can refuse to answer if they don't want to tell you.

@QueenStromba

They're also very keen to unblind and get their control arm vaccinated so it will be very difficult to tell how long immunity lasts

Would you mind explaining in detail as I'm not following you there