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noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2020 20:19

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

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noblegiraffe · 06/12/2020 00:28

That’s what the dongles were meant to be for. Failed on that count too.

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BungleandGeorge · 06/12/2020 02:03

I suspect the many questionnaires that were sent out showed that the numbers requiring internet connection were very much larger than anticipated. In many locations broadband and dongles just don’t work very well. Corbyn took a lot of flack for his free fast broadband for all, but retrospectively it was actually a very sound policy!

tinytemper66 · 06/12/2020 07:47

In Wales...lateral flow tests. I can't quite believe the results to be honest. There must be a flaw. Will see what the beginning of the week brings when we retest!!

CarrieBlue · 06/12/2020 08:01

@tinytemper66

In Wales...lateral flow tests. I can't quite believe the results to be honest. There must be a flaw. Will see what the beginning of the week brings when we retest!!
There were reports yesterday to say lateral flow tests are only picking up 50% of positives - I’d not be too confident that your school has no cases.
flowerycurtain · 06/12/2020 08:14

Broadband speed would be a massive issue where I live.

People round here can afford a laptop and to pay for the broadband. What we can't afford to pay is the 10k openrrsch quoted us to have our house put on fibre. And that was only half the cost as OpenReach paid the other half. Without fibre using the interned between 9am and 10pm is very very slow. Add in a child on Teams and it grinds to a halt.

Admittedly I'm at the end of a long farm drive but most of the villages round here would have similar issues.

lonelyplanet · 06/12/2020 08:27

Schools could be liable. The DfE published this document at the end of July:

www.gov.uk/guidance/steps-to-take-following-the-death-of-a-colleague-in-childrens-services

The last paragraph reads:

"There must be reasonable evidence that the death was caused by an occupational exposure to coronavirus (COVID-19). The responsible person should notify HSE by the quickest practicable means, without delay, and send a report within 10 days of the death. The failure to make a RIDDOR report is a criminal offence.

HSE will look at the circumstances and may decide to investigate. Through their investigatory work, HSE:

identifies actions employers must take to prevent recurrences
aims to share broader lessons
could take enforcement action if there are breaches of health and safety at work law"

Poorlykitten · 06/12/2020 08:41

In my child’s secondary school only one pupil has been off with covid, so something must be working. Am happy they have great cleaning, mask wearing and social distancing in place.

lonelyplanet · 06/12/2020 08:43

@Poorlykitten

In my child’s secondary school only one pupil has been off with covid, so something must be working. Am happy they have great cleaning, mask wearing and social distancing in place.
That's great news for your family. It can't be a state school if they have space to social distance.
tinytemper66 · 06/12/2020 08:46

CarrieBlue...I am not confident at all. I worry about the pupils (& staff) that are in school and may be positive. However it is beyond my control and as long as I do my bit, then I should remain safe as I can possibly be.

whyarewehardofthinking · 06/12/2020 08:51

I'd forgotten about those dongles. We had a dozen arrive that have never worked.

borntobequiet · 06/12/2020 08:56

Lateral flow tests only pick up half of positive cases

www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4744

According to Dr Angela Raffle, Consultant in Public Health and Consultant to the UK National Screening Programmes on Radio 4 the other morning, claims made by Johnson and Hancock for the reliability and efficacy of these tests are false. (The tests are more reliable when supervised and administered by properly trained and experienced people, but that’s often not the case.)
As far as I can recall, Dr Raffle was also incensed by the fact that the information about the unreliability of the tests was hidden away in an appendix to the Liverpool report (it’s mentioned in the link).

noblegiraffe · 06/12/2020 09:17

A lateral flow test that only picks up half of cases is still better than no testing that picks up none if you want a quick litmus test, but I guess it’s worrying if it then gives people a false sense of security and they drop their usual precautions.

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tinytemper66 · 06/12/2020 09:24

Noble...my guard has never dropped. We are very careful my department and I keep my distance, wear my mask, sanitize or wash my hands at every opportunity. I will not take risks with this.

noblegiraffe · 06/12/2020 09:27

I didn’t mean to suggest that you would, tinytemper, I was thinking more of those people who will be using these tests then going mad at Christmas. Uni students are being offered them, for example.

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Poorlykitten · 06/12/2020 09:30

@lonelyplanet, it is a state school. The other even larger state school locally has had only 2 confirmed cases. Maybe they are just stricter with their cleaning and social distancing measures? Kids don’t move classrooms and only socialise outside. Mask worn in corridors. Stringent cleaning and hand sanitising.

noblegiraffe · 06/12/2020 09:37

poorlykitten if in your area the state schools are relatively unaffected then that suggests that community levels are low and compliance with rules are high not that the v basic measures your schools are taking are somehow more effective in those schools than they are in, say, Hull.

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Poorlykitten · 06/12/2020 09:39

We are in the north west and it has been extremely high here.

Walkaround · 06/12/2020 09:40

@borntobequiet - just how accurate in reality are the lab based tests, given that most people appear to be swabbing themselves before they send them off? Surely you can only get the accuracy advertised if the swabbing is done by people properly trained, rather than shoving swabs through car windows for people to use, or posting them into people’s homes?

borntobequiet · 06/12/2020 09:46

Agree that relatively safe schools are likely to be in relatively safe communities. It would be interesting to hear of schools with very few cases in communities where Covid is rife - but I’d be surprised if they exist. And even in a community with few infections, once it gets into schools, the schools will probably drive the rate up, as we know by definition they are not safe - or not at present.
As to the lateral flow tests, they could be made more reliable by being delivered by trained people and backed up perhaps by further random testing of a different sort either administered at the same time or soon afterwards. Or by using the pooled tests suggested upthread (I think).

noblegiraffe · 06/12/2020 09:47

@Poorlykitten

We are in the north west and it has been extremely high here.
If you are in an area with very high rates and yet the school has registered a lot fewer cases than you would expect for the local community then either you’re very lucky or the cases haven’t been picked up.

The issue with secondary schools isn’t just that they reflect community rates, but that infection rates in secondary school children are the highest of all age groups. The drop in this infection rate coinciding with half term points to covid spreading in secondary schools.

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Walkaround · 06/12/2020 09:47

What happened to the spit tests? Why is it still a swab up the nose and down the throat?

borntobequiet · 06/12/2020 09:53

[quote Walkaround]@borntobequiet - just how accurate in reality are the lab based tests, given that most people appear to be swabbing themselves before they send them off? Surely you can only get the accuracy advertised if the swabbing is done by people properly trained, rather than shoving swabs through car windows for people to use, or posting them into people’s homes?[/quote]
I have no idea, but you can probably find the figures somewhere on one of the Data threads.
My feeling is that self testing is bound to be fairly hit and miss. When I did it, it was at least after having one administered to me a few weeks earlier so I knew what it should feel like (both tests were negative).
My other feeling is that government doesn’t care so long as it can be seen to be testing. Public health officials of course do care, but as far as government is concerned, they too are just a prop to be wheeled out to validate policy decisions, and put back in the cupboard when they can’t provide that validation.

lonelyplanet · 06/12/2020 09:58

[quote Poorlykitten]@lonelyplanet, it is a state school. The other even larger state school locally has had only 2 confirmed cases. Maybe they are just stricter with their cleaning and social distancing measures? Kids don’t move classrooms and only socialise outside. Mask worn in corridors. Stringent cleaning and hand sanitising.[/quote]
Your school have been lucky then. I'm afraid I don't believe that social distancing, when children are sat shoulder to shoulder in the classroom, has anything to do with it.

Comefromaway · 06/12/2020 09:59

There are anomalies. Schools round here are dropping like flies yet at my son’s girlfriends school they’ve had a handful of cases in total since September (& it’s not due to social distancing measures as she says there is none though they are wearing masks).

noblegiraffe · 06/12/2020 10:02

Yes, when people say there’s social distancing in secondary schools they’ve clearly not been in one.

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