Test and Trace is 'working on making immunity passports to allow Brits to prove they have been vaccinated against Covid-19 using NHS app'

[trulydelicious]

Just seen this

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9000479/Test-Trace-working-making-immunity-passports.html#reader-comments

This is getting out of control now in my view and all this rethoric is disturbing and irresponsible.

Nobody should be coerced into having vaccines:

1. that use new technology
2. for which long term side effects are not known (precisely because the technology for most of them is new)
3. when pharmaceutical companies producing them are bearing no responsibility for potential side effects

The vaccines should not be touted as a 'passport' to recoup our 'freedoms'

Just to clarify, I'm not anti-vaxx (we have had all childhood vaccines and the flu vaccine)

The article doesn't mention any form of coercion. Its just for international travel and certain types of presumably large gatherings. So if you don't want the vaccine that's your choice, but your choice could put society in danger if, for example, you want a massive wedding with 100 guests who are also unvaccinated. Its hardly withholding major freedoms to force people to get the jab. Missing out on a week in Tenerife is hardly the definition of 'coercion'. I suggest you read less sensationalist news outlets, the Daily Fail does love to whip up a panic over the slightest thing.

But but but...muh forrin holidays!

Plenty of destinations will start imposing restrictions on non vaccinated travellers. Get used to it. You will probably get the option of paying for a private test anyway.

Good! Now we just need a certificate of childhood vaccination (or a signed doctors letter stating medical reasons) in order to enrol your child in school and I’ll be happy.

@MrsMigginsMate

Missing out on a week in Tenerife is hardly the definition of 'coercion'

Why always mention Tenerife and Benidorm?

Should a company executive on a business trip be denied boarding because he/she refused the vaccine due to safety concerns?

You won't HAVE to have any vaccine.
But you might not be able to do certain activities for a while if you don't.

And it's not just the UK if you take this article at face value, Japan, Australia and Canada all mentioned.

Don't have the vaccine if you don't want it.

Well then I hope they quickly roll it out. I'm on one of the final categories of people to get vaccinated. I will happily take one as soon as it is offered

[quote trulydelicious]@MrsMigginsMate

Missing out on a week in Tenerife is hardly the definition of 'coercion'

Why always mention Tenerife and Benidorm?

Should a company executive on a business trip be denied boarding because he/she refused the vaccine due to safety concerns?[/quote]
Yes, yes they should.

What if someone cannot have a vaccine?

@MrsMigginsMate

Yes, yes they should.

You do understand that this is oversimplifying things and does not make sense at all

[quote trulydelicious]@MrsMigginsMate

Missing out on a week in Tenerife is hardly the definition of 'coercion'

Why always mention Tenerife and Benidorm?

Should a company executive on a business trip be denied boarding because he/she refused the vaccine due to safety concerns?[/quote]
Well that executive would be denied boarding if he/she wanted to travel to certain countries without a yellow fever vaccine. Countries and, to a certain extent, airlines can do as they please.

Anyway, I’m sure he or she could afford to pay for multiple covid tests as an alternative. The heart hardly bleeds...

Should a company executive on a business trip be denied boarding because he/she refused the vaccine due to safety concerns?

Yes, if vaccination or confirmed medical exception is a requirement of either carriage by the airline or entry country of destination. I doubt the company would have any difficulty in finding someone else tomsend, but if self-employed it would have to be irtual meetings just as it is now.

@loulouljh

What if someone cannot have a vaccine?

Presumably if they are providing some sort of certificate to say you've had it then they will also be able to produce a certificate to show medical exemption. However certain activities may still have to be restricted for that person until enough people are vaccinated to make their potential spreading less of an issue.

@MrsMigginsMate

they will also be able to produce a certificate to show medical exemption

Not wanting to go into the masks debate (and I'm not exempt by the way), but take that example for instance. Hasn't it been difficult for people to obtain a certificate saying they are exempt? Why would this be easier?

You do understand that this is oversimplifying things and does not make sense at all

It makes perfect sense to me. You can choose not to have a vaccine and continue to work via zoom for international meetings, just as people have been doing for months now. The world doesn't stop because one person thinks they're privileged enough to endanger the rest of passengers on a plane.

"But I'm special" is actually oversimplifying it, to look at the world from an individualistic point of view is the most simple and selfish thing you can do. Nobody is forcing anyone to have the vaccine. Very few people will be impacted by having to work online instead of travelling. Its just a bit of an inconvenience versus infecting a whole plane full of people, meaning 200 passengers isolating, getting ill, missing work and risking their income, some of whom will become very ill and some of whom will die.

Get a grip and read a better news source.

If a vaccination certificate is required for entry into a particular country then it’s down to individual choice isn’t it?
Have the vaccine and go/ or don’t. Pretty simple and nothing new
And the vaccine isn’t untested, it’s had to jump through all the same hoops but the hoops have been put altogether instead of with big gaps in between.
I will be having mine ASAP

[quote trulydelicious]@MrsMigginsMate

they will also be able to produce a certificate to show medical exemption

Not wanting to go into the masks debate (and I'm not exempt by the way), but take that example for instance. Hasn't it been difficult for people to obtain a certificate saying they are exempt? Why would this be easier?[/quote]
Its actually piss easy. You just print one off online and anyone can get one. Ideally the new system of immunity passports would be more rigorous in actually checking someone is really exempt from vaccination.

The whole of the airline industry worldwide want this l read yesterday.

@MrsMigginsMate

infecting a whole plane full of people, meaning 200 passengers isolating, getting ill, missing work and risking their income, some of whom will become very ill and some of whom will die

Business travel was just an example to illustrate how sometimes we can tend to oversimplify things

Some of those passengers would be vaccinated anyway, so, if vaccines work, not a risk to them.

There will be other passengers who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, true. But why will the rights of these passengers trump the rights of people who do not want to be vaccinated for fear of being damaged by a new vaccine?

If the vaccine works then why the worry about people who have not had the vaccine? Is not the whole reason that people have a vaccine is to protect themselves against contracting whatever it is they've been vaccinated against?

There will be other passengers who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, true. But why will the rights of these passengers trump the rights of people who do not want to be vaccinated for fear of being damaged by a new vaccine?

Off the top of my head 3 reasons, there could be more but I have to dash for the school run so I'm limited on time here.

Numbers, the vulnerable and known risks.

1. There will be much more people who want the vaccine when it's their turn. The needs of the many during a pandemic outweigh the wishes of the few (note, wishes NOT needs).

1. Vulnerable people who are unable to have the vaccine because of medical reasons need protecting. We can't release them from shielding unless we put restrictions on the people who are refusing the vaccine. Unless you expect the disabled and vulnerable to just remain locked in their house for the rest of their lives.

1. Covid and it's effects are a known risk. The people who are refusing vaccines are doing so because of unknown risk. Empirical fact trumps speculation in any science driven approach to navigating a pandemic.

I'm not sure what you are so worked up about. Some international travel already requires a negative covid test. It's the logical next step to require vaccination. And having it in an NHS app and approved means airlines can use that instead allow/deny on a whim.

I've been in a situation where the airline check in staff has to check on the home office website because my passport only has 3 months validity but the place I was travelling to only require one month. (Besides I'm a dual citizen and I won't be using my UK passport to enter, so technically I don't believe I need any extra time as long as my passport is valid on return, similar to returning from the EU).

Anyway, I'd rather they have some official way of verifying this then relying on staff and passengers to google over their phones.

Or someone who has to travel to assist a relative for instance

Who would be more worthy of having their health protected? Those on the plane who cannot get vaccinated or those who fear their health will be damaged by the vaccine but would need to travel anyway?

[quote trulydelicious]@MrsMigginsMate

infecting a whole plane full of people, meaning 200 passengers isolating, getting ill, missing work and risking their income, some of whom will become very ill and some of whom will die

Business travel was just an example to illustrate how sometimes we can tend to oversimplify things

Some of those passengers would be vaccinated anyway, so, if vaccines work, not a risk to them.

There will be other passengers who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, true. But why will the rights of these passengers trump the rights of people who do not want to be vaccinated for fear of being damaged by a new vaccine?[/quote]
I think governments will be weighing up the risks of healthcare systems continuing to be overwhelmed versus the human rights issues that you raise in your point. Presumably if governments decide that vaccine uptake is too low to prevent a significant reduction in hospital admissions then they may decide that restrictions must continue for those who haven't been vaccinated. However, I can't see how (for example) long-term restrictions on flying without a vaccine would be possible before a vaccine has been offered to the entire adult population. By that point many people currently reluctant to be vaccinated may be satisfied there have been enough "guinea pigs" in front of them having had the vaccine and uptake will increase.

We don't really know what this proof of vaccine in the app will be used for. It may only be used in place of a covid test before travel which is currently required to enter many countries. So you may be able to choose to have a test or show proof of vaccination. For airlines I imagine proof of vaccination is preferred as it is probably easier to manage. It would be ill advised to speculate on how else it might be used currently.

Some private day nurseries don’t accept babies who haven’t had all their vaccinations. So it’s not a shock to me at all.

@trulydelicious.. I agree with you. My situation is complex and I don't want it to be picked apart on here but this could leave us in a very difficult position.