Do you think they'll force the vaccine on us?

[Closingtime94]

Just that really and I don't mean like they'll force us down and demand we get it but do you think if we want to travel or be admitted to hospital or whatever they'll say we have to have the vaccine or do you think they'll be more like to encourage the older population to have it for those reasons?

I'm just a bit worried as I don't really want to have the vaccine not because I think they're going to put a microchip in us but mostly because it was done very quickly and we don't know much about it, this is the first year I've gotten the flu jab (because pregnant) and ended up really poorly so just a bit wary of the covid jab that's all - maybe I'm worrying over nothing but it's interesting to know what other people think.

@CherryPavlova are you delighted that my daughter is permanently disabled as a result of a vaccine? I assume you are.

Because that's what you're saying. Yes, side effects are rare. But even if it's 1 in 100,000 that gets badly injured, that's 100s of people across the nation.

I see a lot about 'do it for the herd'. In my experience the herd doesn't give two sh..s when you're the collateral damage.

Why restrict anything though? Why not just run rapid tests? Choice for everyone

Out of interest say you turn up at the airport, "fail" the rapid test and are denied travel would you expect a full refund from the airline/holiday company?

[quote PinkFondantFancy]@CherryPavlova are you delighted that my daughter is permanently disabled as a result of a vaccine? I assume you are.[/quote]
Don't be daft, of course not; that's a pretty horrible suggestion.

I am delighted that many lives have been saved by mass vaccination programmes. Whilst it's terribly sad your child has been affected, measles vaccine has saved and estimated 20 million plus children's lives.

Have you ever seen or considered the devastation caused by a concurrent measles and rubella outbreak in a refugee camp? Have you ever sat with a child dying from an almost entirely preventable disease?

As of today there have been 1,399,073 confirmed deaths from Coronavirus. The actual number is likely to be much higher. We are already seeing mink variance coronavirus in France now. It needs to be brought under control and shutting Weatherspoons at 11pm won't be enough.

Future deaths will be reduced very significantly if people vaccinate. I assume you travel in cars despite some people being killed or seriously injured by them? I get that for individuals there may be circumstances that make you hesitant, but I am not sure you can place whole populations at risk because of that. I would absolutely hope that vaccination becomes the norm and that the uptake from December 8th is high.

But even if it's one in 100,000 that gets badly injured, that's hundreds of people across the nation

So like COVID then, except with way better odds.

Well said, Cherry Pavlova. Could not agree more.

@OpheliasCrayon

Anti vaxxers scare me

With all due respect (as I sympathise with what you are saying), you shouldn't be scared of anti vaxxers - and there are seem to be very few of them on this thread anyway.

You should be afraid of people with massive egos and greed who are taking advantage of a pandemic to play Dr. Frankenstein and be allowed to experiment on people at will (mRNA, chimpanzee virus vectors, proprietary adjuvants, etc)

If instead, all the funding had been used to bring to the market bog-standard 'traditional' vaccines with tried and tested techniques, maybe people would not be so wary and reticent.

As someone who genuinely cannot have a lot of vaccinations and drugs, I do rely on others doing so

You need to rely on other people to be vaccinated, and that's fair enough. But also other people have the right to have vaccines that are safe and not to be put at risk through vaccination. One person's right to be safe should not trump others'.

So like COVID then, except with way better odds

Well, that depends on the individual, doesn't it? Which is kind of the point about letting people choose. For some, the risk of COVID is extremely low. If I was 80, I'd be much more likely to want to risk the vaccine right away.

And we can forget about the "do it for others" argument for now, since we don't actually know yet whether the most advanced covid vaccines stop transmission or not.

I will say it again, the consensus of opinion in the UK is that there should be voluntary vaccination. This exists within political, scientific and medical opinion. Their reasoning is simple they want high uptake and voluntary vaccination gives better results and it aligns to our cultural values.

There is no debate. The only people who want to throw around this possibility and engage in this debate is ant-vaxers. Voluntary vaccination scares them more than mandatory because they know it means more people get vaccinated.

Voluntary vaccination also undermines their conspiracy theories on authoritarian government and gives them nothing to be angry about. They are secretly simmering that the vaccination won’t be compulsory here.

I've not problem with letting people choose but equally I have no problem with their being consequences of that choice, esp as related to travel and insurance.

@Porcupineinwaiting

But even if it's one in 100,000 that gets badly injured, that's hundreds of people across the nation

So like COVID then, except with way better odds.

Well no not at all. You are deriving facts and conclusions from ill informed speculation.

Really? You think the odds of being seriously damaged by the COVID vaccine are worse than those for being seriously damaged by COVID? For the population as a whole?

Bring in your data.

@Porcupineinwaiting

There is no data as these vaccines are new

Voluntary vaccination also undermines their conspiracy theories on authoritarian government and gives them nothing to be angry about. They are secretly simmering that the vaccination won’t be compulsory here.

^^ Yes.

@LemonTT

I will say it again, the consensus of opinion in the UK is that there should be voluntary vaccination. This exists within political, scientific and medical opinion. Their reasoning is simple they want high uptake and voluntary vaccination gives better results and it aligns to our cultural values.

There is no debate. The only people who want to throw around this possibility and engage in this debate is ant-vaxers. Voluntary vaccination scares them more than mandatory because they know it means more people get vaccinated.

Voluntary vaccination also undermines their conspiracy theories on authoritarian government and gives them nothing to be angry about. They are secretly simmering that the vaccination won’t be compulsory here.

Yep spot on

But vaccination isn’t the only way to gain immunity. Many people are already immune from having CV. They are already contributing to herd immunity. Vaccinating older/more vulnerable people will add to that. I don’t think it’s necessary (or entirely ethical) to force a vaccine on an entire population when it is a very mild/asymptomatic illness for the majority. (And by ‘force’ I mean ‘place restrictions on people who don’t have it’) It shouldn’t matter how your immunity is gained.

@bumbleymummy

Yes, 'by force' is a broad term

My friend lives in Spain and said there's already rumblings that holiday makers won't be allowed into the country or the balearic islands without a covid vaccine certificate or proof they've had the jab.

I have no idea how true that is however!

[quote trulydelicious]@OpheliasCrayon

Anti vaxxers scare me

With all due respect (as I sympathise with what you are saying), you shouldn't be scared of anti vaxxers - and there are seem to be very few of them on this thread anyway.

You should be afraid of people with massive egos and greed who are taking advantage of a pandemic to play Dr. Frankenstein and be allowed to experiment on people at will (mRNA, chimpanzee virus vectors, proprietary adjuvants, etc)

If instead, all the funding had been used to bring to the market bog-standard 'traditional' vaccines with tried and tested techniques, maybe people would not be so wary and reticent.

As someone who genuinely cannot have a lot of vaccinations and drugs, I do rely on others doing so

You need to rely on other people to be vaccinated, and that's fair enough. But also other people have the right to have vaccines that are safe and not to be put at risk through vaccination. One person's right to be safe should not trump others'.[/quote]
So I was rushing this morning when I wrote that. For me, I personally don't care. It doesn't bother me that I can't have the vaccine. I've chosen not to shield and I'm not at all fussed that I can't be vaccinated. If there wasn't a vaccine I would still not be worried. The whole situation doesn't bother me.

Anti vaxxers on the whole though, do scare me. Not to do with covid but just in general. It comes from someone who is an SEN teacher specialising in ASD, that knowing the damage that Wakefield and his MMR / autism nonsense has caused, and the damage that it still continues to cause when parents think that vaccines aren't safe. Yes, absolutely, some people don't want them, can't have them. Yes absolutely some people have had horrible horrible experiences with genuine vaccine injury and some are absolutely real. I've taught some children who have been affected as such. And yes I can't have many vaccines and medications, so yes in some situations I rely on herd immunity. However I'm a very easy going person who never worries so it doesn't bother me.

But anti vaxxers, the ones who genuinely believe the heresay and the fake news and the wakefield like tripe.. they do scare me with their willingness to risk their child and not vaccinate for some very important things.

Yes there is personal choice but, when the choice is being made based on incorrect, unscientific, unproven and dangerous dangerous words...then yes...it scares me

Oh and sorry maybe I wasn't clear when I say I've mentioned this as an SEN teacher I also feel it's very very upsetting and I have had parents confirm as such, that some people still suggested autism can be caused by something like a vaccine etc... It's a stigma that we don't need at all in 2020. Autism isn't caused by anything and the children I teach, and their parents, deserve their dignity not being removed by anti vax nonsense

Thanks @OpheliasCrayon

I see your point of view also

@trulydelicious

Thanks *@OpheliasCrayon*

I see your point of view also

There's anti vax and there's people making personal choices over a very new vaccine for a very new illness. They're not the same thing in my opinion but genuine anti vaxxers are often very misguided and very dangerous.

Whilst I can't have the covid vaccine it doesn't bother me if people don't and I totally understand anyones concerns.

Mumsnet used to be a safe space for the mothers of disabled children - very sad to read some of these comments

@CherryPavlova and there's my point made entirely. "Thanks @PinkFondantFancy for doing the right thing attempting to protect your child and the rest of the herd. I'm really sorry your child was unfortunately one of the children damaged in the process. We're grateful that you did it though and I'd hope society in return does what it can to support you". Nope, didn't hear that from you. Just more sanctimony. Thanks.

Have I ever sat next to a child dying of a preventable disease? No but I have sat next to a child, nursing them for months while the medics weren't sure if they'd die, having been 100% healthy just before. So I'd say it's pretty close.

All these things are a risk benefit trade off. The risks to my child or in fact me of covid are vanishingly small. The risks to my child of say, measles, are higher and therefore the risk of a rare vaccine reaction is worth taking. This is why you'll find a lot of people questioning this one when previously they've questioned no others. Risking a rare side effect to maybe help others (no info yet on whether the vaccines do actually reduce transmission) doesn't seem like a good trade off to me

@DianaT1969

Can you imagine how sheepish people will feel if they refuse the vaccine and end up in hospital with a serious case of Covid? On an isolation ward with staff still having to wear full PPE due to the potential of them spreading (rather than getting I'll with it themselves). I can't imagine you'll feel welcomed! Ethically, how would you feel taking space and resources when a vaccine isn't available. One could argue that smokers or obese people might take up resources, but their issues don't have the quick fix of a free injection - the damage is already done. Or, they test positive for Covid in the workplace. All their vaccinated colleagues now have to be careful in case it can still be transmitted.

If this is the case then what is the point? If we still can't go back to normal post vaccine then what is the point in it?