Horrified that people still don't get it

[PoppingCandies]

And I say this as someone who has essential hospital care delayed. But if hospital beds in ICU are full of patients with coronavirus, how do you expect hoz

The trouble with name calling and trying to shut down posters who disagree is that there are a lot of people on Mumsnet and some of them look at things differently and ask non-mainstream questions.

Here we are dealing with a new virus and a difficult and new situation and it seems that if we consider every point of view we are more likely to make progress than if we just reject the ones that are outside the 'but everyone is doing ...' scenario.

Some will be off the mark, of course, but, for example, it took a while for loss of smell and taste to be recognised as a Covid symptom and if we'd just rejected that out of hand (and called the people who suggested it names) we'd have lost a useful diagnostic clue.

Also a lot of different situations and priorities are represented by Mumsnetters and it is helpful to consider as many as possible to get an idea of what will help the situation as a whole.

@Nellodee

For those saying "this can't go on forever" - have you not noticed that there is a 90% effective vaccine about to start being delivered before the end of the year? Isn't it a bit stupid to have gone through all this pain on this course of action and then give up on it six weeks before we start coming out the other side? That doesn't make any sense as a course of action to me.

If it was a case of wait 6 weeks, vulnerable will be vaccinated and back to normal. I think most people would comply. In reality it won't be like that. There are people who want restrictions until everyone is vaccinated which will be months if not years and it will never be every single person.

@BiBabbles all I said was it's not the same for everyone. As in long covid is not the same for everyone. For some people it'll be much worse than others.

Which is pretty much what you've just said.

Why you're getting on at me I don't know.

'it took a while for loss of smell and taste to be recognised as a Covid symptom'

I was working on a covid test booking line back in March and loads of people were reporting loss of taste and smell. We even asked for it to be added as an option on the computer system we used but they didn't take any notice of us minions.

It was clear to us back then that loads of people with symptoms were still going to work in care homes too so the care home scandal came as no surprise to me.

Agree OP. I'm not in the UK but we talked to my PILs on the phone yesterday who live in Wales and they breezily informed me they intend to drive to their second home in the Highlands of Scotland this week.

Apparently it's ok because they'll only stop a few times. I was gobsmacked but my FIL would not listen to reason at all.

Remember that the NHS has been underfunded and in bad shape for decades. It is not a good service at all when compared to the standards of what you get in France or Germany to start with. Hardly surprising that the system is struggling to cope. The same thing was already happening with the flu every winter so we should not be surprised that it is worse this year...If we want a decent health and social care service we have to fund that correctly.

It is also buying into the government propaganda to believe that everything that goes wrong is due to 'covidiots'.

Let's not forget that they messed up testing, track and trace and failed to use the summer/last lockdown to plan. Putting your rich mates (Dido) in charge of public health interventions was never going to work.

Also, I think it is completely normal to want to look at all the elements of the crisis: job losses, businesses going under, mental health and so on.

People also look at the average age of the person who dies of Covid (which is 82, above the average life expectancy) and they see that lockdowns have simply failed in Europe to stop the virus.

I don't blame those who have stopped sticking to rules that are often nonsensical.

Remember that the NHS has been underfunded and in bad shape for decades.

I thought Labour "saved" the NHS with their NIC rises and trebling it's funding?? (Or did that just go on shiny new hospitals and mega pay rises for GPs to do less?)

@Requinblanc

Remember that the NHS has been underfunded and in bad shape for decades. It is not a good service at all when compared to the standards of what you get in France or Germany to start with. Hardly surprising that the system is struggling to cope. The same thing was already happening with the flu every winter so we should not be surprised that it is worse this year...If we want a decent health and social care service we have to fund that correctly.

It is also buying into the government propaganda to believe that everything that goes wrong is due to 'covidiots'.

Let's not forget that they messed up testing, track and trace and failed to use the summer/last lockdown to plan. Putting your rich mates (Dido) in charge of public health interventions was never going to work.

Also, I think it is completely normal to want to look at all the elements of the crisis: job losses, businesses going under, mental health and so on.

People also look at the average age of the person who dies of Covid (which is 82, above the average life expectancy) and they see that lockdowns have simply failed in Europe to stop the virus.

I don't blame those who have stopped sticking to rules that are often nonsensical.

In both France and Germany you have a very basic state funded health system, but all citizens must still have either state or private health insurance to cover all hospital medical treatments and pregnancies too.

I feel quite strongly that two things should be taught in schools now - what a good, non toxic relationship looks like and how to recognise abuse and critical thinking. Both are badly needed

@knittingaddict are you, me? Please could you become Education Secretary? Mr Gove, who had the opportunity of a generation to reform education, thought it was more important to cram facts in our children, that they probably then promptly forget; so there's no time to teach them how to actually think, critique theories and present decent arguments. Let alone learn essential life skills.

From my taxable income (Germany) are deducted for the social contract pots:
15,1% health insurance
3,05 % old age care insurance
18,6% pension
2,5% unemployment
all added to by a percentage of employer contributions.

My health care contribution covers me, all childeren in full time education and a possible a sahp.

@Prokupatuscrakedatus what percentage of your salary is housing costs (mortgage/rent)?

@m0therofdragons

We do not have a mortgage (renting is normal, secure and not looked down upon), housing comes to about 30%, but we live very centrally in Berlin. Somewhere else (outskirts) would be cheaper.

I'm horrified that people think that thousands of elderly dying every year of flu/seasonal respiratory diseases (and younger people/children too) is a new phenomenon. And that NHS hospitals don't have people dying and suffering in the corridors EVERY YEAR due to lack of resources but no-one bats an eyelid even though it's been going on for years. That's what horrifies me. And I'm a nurse.

But they are adamant to destroy society, the economy and humanity and lose all their liberties and rights to live a restrictive draconian life under virtual police rule for this??? Beggars belief.

The 50 year old who dies from a treatable cancer and leaves children behind because the NHS has shut down and they were NOT ALLOWED to access screening or treatment all to save 90 year old Elsie in the nursing home. Well done.

@user1471562688

I'm horrified that people think that thousands of elderly dying every year of flu/seasonal respiratory diseases (and younger people/children too) is a new phenomenon. And that NHS hospitals don't have people dying and suffering in the corridors EVERY YEAR due to lack of resources but no-one bats an eyelid even though it's been going on for years. That's what horrifies me. And I'm a nurse. But they are adamant to destroy society, the economy and humanity and lose all their liberties and rights to live a restrictive draconian life under virtual police rule for this??? Beggars belief.

Then surely you can see that that usual state of affairs in the winter plus a novel highly contagious virus with thousands hospitalised every day is a perfect storm? That, plus the fact that NHS staff are so often off work isolating with it as well. Other season viruses can overwhelm in winter but they do not have these extra issues. I am just baffled that people can't see this.

I am astounded at the amount of people who do not care if their reckless behaviour could cause another person to die. In this situation, we need to behave for the greater good, and not put our wishes to socialise and party first.
There will be time for that, but first we need to act responsibly and beat this virus.

@AlwaysLatte

People are thick. Look at how many voted for Trump.

Or Boris/Cummings

I am astounded at the amount of people who do not care if their reckless behaviour could cause another person to die

But this 'reckless behaviour' you speak of isn't necessarily about throwing big parties.

It can be meeting up with close relatives (parents) that we've been prevented from seeing for more than 6 months of this year. My parents are old, I don't know how much longer they'll be around for, is it reasonable to continue to insist I avoid normal human interaction with them?

They have little fear of Covid, they are well aware there are many other things out there that can kill them.

They don't get it, you only have to read the idiotic responses on here about "fake news" whilst completing ignoring the fact that thousands of people per day are testing positive, many with more severe symptoms than the 1st time around and that hospitals are full again.

But no, no..... people aren't dropping dead on the street in front of their very eyes therefore it's all a government/media conspiracy because they want mind control over us all whilst the country sinks into oblivion.

Pass the tin hats.

My parents are old, I don't know how much longer they'll be around for, is it reasonable to continue to insist I avoid normal human interaction with them?

They have little fear of Covid, they are well aware there are many other things out there that can kill them.

My elderly parents have the same view. The trouble is that Covid killing them is not something that has zero effect on anyone else. Firstly, they could pass it on to someone else when they are infected but asymptomatic. Secondly, if they do eventually die from it, this is likely to be after considerable amount of hospital treatment - which is resources they are taking away from someone else.

If people want to break the rules but are prepared to isolate themselves afterwards (so not passing any infection onto anyone else) and would refuse any health care they needed, I would be fully in favour of them doing whatever they want. Unfortunately I suspect most people who think it's fine to break the rules are not prepared to do either of these things.

No way are all the hospital staff looking after the covid patients. They are not all trained for that for one thing.

The big problem is that people get their "facts" from questionable sources, such as tabloid papers and don't fully fact check the sensationalist headlines. The 50000 extra flu deaths 2017/18 season is debunked in BMJ saying flu death numbers are nowhere near this high. The media have handled this horrendously, but have sold loads of papers so that's OK but really people need to engage their brains.

www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2795/rr-6#

I can't link the full article as its only available to subscribers.

And yes the NHS has been run down for the last many years, but that's not an argument for ignoring covid regulations. Anyone who attends A&E with life threatening illness/ injury will be treated, covid related or not. It's the cases which are not immediately life threatening that are put on hold. So we need to keep people out of A&E - don't take illicit drugs, don't drink and drive, don't randomly stop taking regular medication, get your flu jab, follow covid guidelines. Then the overworked NHS workers can get beyond the fire fighting they are doing now, and every winter, and actually assess and treat those at early stages of illness. Take some personal responsibility.

@Celestine70

No way are all the hospital staff looking after the covid patients. They are not all trained for that for one thing.

There are a number of clinical settings in which Covid patients are cared for. A&E staff deal with the initial presentations, stabilising pts and making decisions about levels of intervention. Some are in intensive care units which requires experienced staff with specialist skills and training. Many more are in step down high dependency units with less invasive forms of ventilation. Others are being cared for in general medical wards requiring variable levels of respiratory support, oxygen supply and intervention. Other hospital wards have been set aside for dying patients, or those expected to die and staff there will often have specific experience in end of life care. There is no specific skill set which covers all stages of covid healthcare

@PoppingCandies

Our hospitals were bad back in March/ April. They just made the criteria for getting inside hospital so high to hide it that there was a lot of incredibly sick and frightened people left at home.

Yes - it was almost impossible to get into hospital.

It was on the national news a local NHS hospital had 600 staff off last week, this was due to isolating or family members doing so, ill, exhausted, scared, worn out.
The NHS queues for routine operations are going down be it slowly as NHS has bought beds in private hospitals, They (the staff) are paid less, work on less staff, are running theatres till 9pm at night to get the NHS queues down, with none of the recognition. This is fact.