Horrified that people still don't get it

[PoppingCandies]

And I say this as someone who has essential hospital care delayed. But if hospital beds in ICU are full of patients with coronavirus, how do you expect hoz

@Echobelly

The message does more clearly need to be given that this is not about '83 year olds must on no account be allowed to die', it's entirely about hospital overwhelm, but that's a slightly more subtle thing to understand, so there's a number of people who Just Refuse To Get It.

Except that is actually what a lot of people want isn't it. I think we all understand hospital capacity, but some people really do think we should be doing everything possible to stop care home residents dying even if that essentially means killing other younger healthier people.

But even 80odd year olds who die will risk overwhelming the NHS even if we “let them die”. They will still die receiving medical treatment. We can’t and don’t just leave people to suffocate to death at home.

@MadameBlobby

But even 80odd year olds who die will risk overwhelming the NHS even if we “let them die”. They will still die receiving medical treatment. We can’t and don’t just leave people to suffocate to death at home.

Ffs nobody is saying let them die. I'm just saying that genuinely some people think mid to late 80s is a completely unacceptable time in your life to die. For me personally I don't think it is. And I don't think others should die to "save" them.

‘And do you include yourself in that @Retiremental? Or are you the lone saint in a sea of vileness?
And very keen of self-righteous generalising’

You kinda lose any credibility with the bullshitty strike through.
I’ve seen the worst outcomes of covid at work week after week after week for months. I’ve now seen it personally as well.
I’ve deleted all of my personal social media because I have do many friends and family members who are constantly and blatantly putting themselves and others at risk through their actions. Have we complied to regulations? Yeah. Absolutely. Do I consider myself a saint or worthy of praise? Absolutely fecking not. But I’m sick of the utter selfishness in our society. I’m probably heading towards being traumatised by what I’ve worked through. People don’t want to hear and they don’t actually care when it’s an abstract concept that doesn’t affect them.

@ineedsun

Many people still know no one who has been diagnosed with coronavirus. I know several who believe they had it back in March/April and no one was ill for more than a few days and they quickly recovered.

Then you, and they, are lucky.

You do know that stuff exists outside your own experience?

I've never been to Alaska but I'm pretty sure it is real.

Alaska is definitely real - I've been there.

I realise I'm lucky, but if you live in the southern half of the country my experience isn't unusual at all.

Has anyone said that it’s unacceptable for people in their 80s to die? The problem is not so much people dying. It’s the use of NHS resources whether or not they can be saved. My Gran died of a stroke when she was in her 80s. Her fate was sealed as soon as it happened, it was not recoverable from. But she still had 5 months in a hospital bed using up hospital resources all that time before the inevitable finally happened. Multiply that by many times the number of people and this is the problem for the NHS and Covid.

It's pretty normal here not to anyone who's died because not that many people have died in our hospital trust. I do know a couple of people who have tested positive but were fine after a couple of weeks.

I think people do get it, and it’s fairly arrogant to assume they don’t. It’s been plastered on the media for nearly a year, everyone gets it.

What is in dispute is how likely it is to happen and what’s mis understood is how many beds are free due to other operations being delayed. That’s not being made properly clear.

The statistics are constantly up for debate. And the government has already been warned that the data they present is confusing to the public, and witty and valance hauled in front of a select committee to explain exactly why they used misleading and erroneous data to justify lock down.

However there is no doubt that many areas of the Uk are not seeing a peak that justifies lock down as they are currently in, and this is coupled with a lack of transparency on bed availability v delayed treatment, and then topped off with erroneous, misleading and heavily disputed forecasts.

So it’s not people “don’t get it” of course they “get” your simplistic statement on the nhs being overwhelmed, what is not being accepted is the likely hood of the Uk being in this position, because even the scientists and modellers doing the forecasts can’t agree. And if they can’t agree the public has no chance.

@MadameBlobby

Has anyone said that it’s unacceptable for people in their 80s to die? The problem is not so much people dying. It’s the use of NHS resources whether or not they can be saved. My Gran died of a stroke when she was in her 80s. Her fate was sealed as soon as it happened, it was not recoverable from. But she still had 5 months in a hospital bed using up hospital resources all that time before the inevitable finally happened. Multiply that by many times the number of people and this is the problem for the NHS and Covid.

Erm yes. They have. A lot.

I understand the capacity issue but the people who don't want 80 year olds to die don't have an issue with capacity they just think we should all stay at home so that nobody dies. People die.

Don't lecture me like I don't understand. I do understand. But the lockdown lovers who want to save everyone don't understand.

I don’t think over 80s dying is tragic or unacceptable. But the NHS will be overwhelmed if lots of them need to go into hospital even if the decision is made not to try and save them. You say you understand but it seems you actually don’t.

I don't think people do 'get it' Bluntness. Genuinely, they don't understand or they just don't care.

@MadameBlobby

I don’t think over 80s dying is tragic or unacceptable. But the NHS will be overwhelmed if lots of them need to go into hospital even if the decision is made not to try and save them. You say you understand but it seems you actually don’t.

Why do you think I don't understand? I haven't actually made any arguments again what you're saying. I mean lecture me all you want but I do understand.

I think the oversimplified explanations and solutions given by the government and media haven't helped anything. There was this image back in March if we just lockdown, we'll "Save the NHS" and everything will work out and be worth it.

It was never going to be that simple. It was always going to be attempting to balance various risks and responsibilities with potential benefits -- and sometimes we lose out to the risks. Some won't be happy about that.

On top of that, the government wasted a fuckton of money that the taxpayers are expected to pay back on "private partners" who fucked up and there has been little to no accountability for it. It's hard to take things seriously when it looks like so many who are meant to be helping us are giving their mates kickbacks with no concerns of the consequences of those choices. The whole system is fucked up, it's not a surprise people are reacting this way.

It's always more complicated, much like the debate with Long COVID. Long COVID is complicated, as are all post-viral conditions. For some, Long COVID presents like post-viral fatigue, for others it's damage from ventilators and other treatments, still others it's permanent damage caused by the virus to the heart, lungs, and other organs, for others it triggers auto-immune conditions, and on and on it goes. Many life-long and life-limiting conditions have been linked to being triggered by virus from postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome to Multiple Sclerosis, Long COVID will likely include people who have to deal with some of them.

as we all know post viral syndrome can be shitty but not that horrendous to the incredibly awful for years kind is inaccurate. Some do suffer with post viral syndrome for years and 'as we all know' there is a lot about post viral syndrome -- and other chronic conditions caused by viruses - that we don't actually know.

The mass testing needs to stop at some point. There are now countries with hospitals that test weekly having so many staff off that they have had to tell them to come in if well enough to work, as long as they wear full PPE. I work in community nursing and have never had a test, we are so short staffed in my area as is that any of us going off unless actually unwell would leave us in the poop especially if several have to go off because of asymptomatic cases.

I’m sure I also saw somewhere that places like China etc now only test if you have symptoms not just testing everyone

The issue for me is that as this crap can’t go on forever there is a point where it just has to be accepted that the NHS will be overwhelmed or lots will die. I don’t know when it will be reached but surely it has to be at some point as the restrictions are not sustainable long term, regardless of the consequences of lifting them.

@BiBabbles

I think the oversimplified explanations and solutions given by the government and media haven't helped anything. There was this image back in March if we just lockdown, we'll "Save the NHS" and everything will work out and be worth it.

It was never going to be that simple. It was always going to be attempting to balance various risks and responsibilities with potential benefits -- and sometimes we lose out to the risks. Some won't be happy about that.

On top of that, the government wasted a fuckton of money that the taxpayers are expected to pay back on "private partners" who fucked up and there has been little to no accountability for it. It's hard to take things seriously when it looks like so many who are meant to be helping us are giving their mates kickbacks with no concerns of the consequences of those choices. The whole system is fucked up, it's not a surprise people are reacting this way.

It's always more complicated, much like the debate with Long COVID. Long COVID is complicated, as are all post-viral conditions. For some, Long COVID presents like post-viral fatigue, for others it's damage from ventilators and other treatments, still others it's permanent damage caused by the virus to the heart, lungs, and other organs, for others it triggers auto-immune conditions, and on and on it goes. Many life-long and life-limiting conditions have been linked to being triggered by virus from postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome to Multiple Sclerosis, Long COVID will likely include people who have to deal with some of them.

as we all know post viral syndrome can be shitty but not that horrendous to the incredibly awful for years kind is inaccurate. Some do suffer with post viral syndrome for years and 'as we all know' there is a lot about post viral syndrome -- and other chronic conditions caused by viruses - that we don't actually know.

Yes I meant it's not awful for years for everyone. I never said it wasn't for anyone. You've misread.

I know that because I have lasting damage from glandular fever and have done for years

'the NHS will be overwhelmed or lots will die'

No, it's the NHS will be overwhelmed AND lots will die.

Do you not keep your distance at work @madcatladyforever

People could be working with no symptoms

@wheresmymojo

I think what I find consistently and astonishingly arrogant about certain types of posters on this thread is...

That there are hundreds of experts both across epidemiology, public health and economic experts working on the response to this on Government responses across the world.

That the response across the the vast majority of Governments (all with their own expert advisors and spanning different right and left wing set ups) is very similar with only a couple of exceptions is notable.

That these experts and all of the Govts will have discussed and weighed up choices between all of the things we've discussed: impact on the economy, impact to mental health, impact on non-COVID deaths, on livelihoods and on COVID deaths

...and yet, some people on Mumsnet think they know better.

I mean, it takes a certain type of person doesn't it

This.

The amount of people on various threads who think that Boris is just making up rules himself just for the hell of it is shocking.

COVID is being prioritised because serious conditions like cancer and strokes aren't contagious and if NHS staff catch CV then everybody is fucked.

March/April might not have seemed bad to some because we were told not to get medical help unless we were turning blue (Germans were told to get medical help if they had difficulty breathing)

There was also massive regional variation in cases. I'm in the SE and we are this is the first time we've had deaths since June.

I also think the vast amount of "fake news" available has people believing those sources. Every time someone talks about overwhelmed hospitals there will be a poster who says their hospital is very quiet and the staff are watching Netflix as they are so bored. I understand why people want to believe them over the "hospitals are overwhelmed" narrative. Note I don't work in a care home or hospital so I have no clue how bad it is. There will always be someone insisting it's this bad every winter so it's hard to know what to think.

For those saying "this can't go on forever" - have you not noticed that there is a 90% effective vaccine about to start being delivered before the end of the year? Isn't it a bit stupid to have gone through all this pain on this course of action and then give up on it six weeks before we start coming out the other side? That doesn't make any sense as a course of action to me.

@FractionalGains

It is about prioritising covid over other cases. Hospitals cleared other services to make space for covid - that’s prioritisation. They didn’t say “we are allocating X number of beds for covid patients and will triage who gets them to ensure we can still provide other urgent services”. I’m not saying that’s what they should have done, but it is prioritisation of covid.

Watch this week’s Hospital - cancer operations from March only being redone in September, and one of the example they used, the cancer had spread in the meantime. People with aneurysms that could burst at any moment have been waiting for months for their surgery due to covid capacity- can you imagine how terrifying that will have been?

I think you don’t need to have much humanity to understand why people in that situation feel upset by hard done by.

That's triage and infection control though. If you can't treat everyone at once then you prioritise the people with the most urgent need - not bring able to breathe kills you a hell of a lot faster than cancer and people with aneurysms might die of old age in fifty years. You also can't have hospitals stuffed with patients when there is a highly infectious virus around that has a high mortality rate for already sick people. The mortality rate for covid in post operative patients is almost 25% and most cancer treatments put you on the shielding list.

We're talking about someone wanting to go for a pint, or whatever

So in this sentence "whatever" means

• get married
• see relatives who they havent seen for months and may not see for many more (or ever again)
• have a job
• run a business
• see more than one friend or family member

Yeah, whatever

@TrustTheGeneGenieAnd and I've had one of the conditions I listed for decades now and cared for those with the others. Not sure what that changes.

As the link I gave said, Long COVID is a helpful way within research and those affected to group anything related to a post-COVID reaction or condition - it very much isn't just one thing as the person you agreed with said. It's been separated out into different causes for months now. Long COVID isn't "just" post-viral syndrome - that's one area of it and many who have post-viral syndrome and related conditions would like that better recognized, but it also includes those damaged by treatment, organs directly by the virus, by those who got a secondary infection after it, and so on. Some Long COVID research does focus only on post-viral fatigue and there have been some great connections which may benefit wider groups, but nothing is that simple. While there is little point in being overdramatic that everyone who has symptoms longer than a month will inevitable end up living in misery for the rest of their lives (many of us with chronic condition don't) I don't see benefits for it being taken less seriously when the many conditions linked to viral exposure are often already dismissed in a way that hurts people.

Few conditions are at their worst for everyone, but saying "as we all know" for anything to do with post-viral syndrome - or any similar chronic condition - is inaccurate or to misspeak - we don't know. There is a fuckton about them no one knows including how long most suffer and the severity curve. There are plenty of people who get better from viruses and then get autoimmune conditions later that some researchers now link to previous viral exposure or have multiple episodes throughout their lives. There are plenty of people who never seek formal treatment so won't be in any stats, but still suffer greatly.

Data constantly changes and needs to be considered more, particularly by "private partners" who waste billions, but in general I'd prefer if it was more acceptable to say we don't know. Maybe if in the early days things were treated less definitively with oversimplified explanations, it wouldn't feel to so many of the boy who cried wolf or that Long COVID is just a lazy excuse.