This scientist thinks we have got everything very, very wrong

[queenofknives]

I mean, he's pretty convincing so far tbh. Anyone else watching?

You do understand EXCESS deaths OP. you know, higher than previous years?

Wow. You are truly insane.

Very dangerous that you want to shut down discourse that goes against lockdowns.

I don't want to shut down discourse, I want to shut down repeated lies in this very limited situation where there is threat to life from it.

There are arguments on both sides and it should be able to be debated sensibly without need for censorship.

Both sides of what? It's fine to argue the government response has been crap (it has). That if we had been better organised we could have avoided such Draconian restrictions (I agree).

It would be great to hear concrete alternatives to the current lockdown based on the reality that track and trace isn't working well and we were losing control of the virus again.

We don't get that. We get: herd immunity (lies), very few people die (lies), deaths being recorded wrongly (maybe the odd one but the error is much bigger the other way), PCR is inaccurate (lies) and lots of Scientists disagree (lies).

Free expression is very, very important, but this is shouting fire in a crowded room. It's lying on such a way that credulous people may put themselves and others at risk as a result.

'Long COVID' does not exist. Post viral syndrome does and has been around for a long time.

The vast majority will have no submarine after a few weeks.

I don't think they've ever had a submarine.

But what several colleagues of mine have suffered are recurrent problems with heart, kidney and blood functions which go way beyond ordinary post-viral symptoms. We are talking about people who fell ill in March and are still seriously ill.

The other difference is the very high number of Covid sufferers who develop these long-lasting symptoms. Much higher than after normal viruses.

I do know what post-viral syndrome is like: my own dd took nearly a year to learn to walk straight after a bout of flu. That is still nothing compared to what my colleagues have been going through during the last 8 months.

@queenofknives

There is absolutely no evidence that lockdowns reduce death rates. There is no link between tough containment measures and less deaths- in fact this may actually increase deaths longer term.

Right. I think this is the key point. I'm not saying covid is a hoax or any such thing. But it seems clear that lockdown is not an effective response. In fact, it creates many extremely serious, potentially devastating problems of its own. There is a better way, which would involve shielding the vulnerable while the rest of us got on with normal life plus plenty of handwashing.

You can't shield the vulnerable because they are the group that need to have medical appointmemts more than any other group. So you would also have to shield all carers, their families, all hospital workers, their families, people on public transport (because plenty of vulnerable don't drive), their families....

Get it?

The vast majority will have no submarine after a few weeks.

That's probably true, but I'm unclear on the relevance.

@queenofknives

How would you propose shielding someone like me? And I'm one of the lucky ones who can work from home! Idiotic suggestion

Thanks for the ad hominem! Well I think there are certainly possibilities for vulnerable people to be supported to be at home and to isolate from others. It is a shame if a minority of people can't live normal life because of the threat of this virus, but I think it's selfish to expect everyone to give up their lives. I'm sure that there are sensible solutions that could be put in place.

Please tell me how? I'm very vulnerable. Also very pregnant. Do you suggest that I free birth?

@queenofknives

How many more times does it need to be explained why this isn't possible

Once would be good. I mean, those who are vulnerable would also be vulnerable to flu (no, I'm not saying it's the same thing) so how do we protect those people from getting flu? We do have some knowledge about how to protect people, is what I'm saying. I would have no problem wearing a mask or ppe around such a vulnerable person. I have friends with serious illnesses who I don't visit if I have a cold, and who are always more careful about physical contact. We do have some experience with infectious diseases and I don't think a middle way is beyond our wits. We can't make it entirely risk-free for vulnerable people (or anyone) but I think we could reduce the risks without everyone having to sacrifice so much.

Your idea about everyone wearing ppe around vulnerable people is an interesting one. But sadly, I know from my experience that trying to get everyone to wear a mask is not working.

I'm pregnant. I don't have a car so have to take public transport. I've got my baby on board badge on. On many occasions I've asked people on public transport to take their masks off their chins, or observe social distancing. The other day, a got a mouthful from someone who I asked politely.

Anyway, masks reduce risk, but don't eliminate the risk. So those health and social care workers may still pass on covid to those people shielding.

Marjory - Professor Gupta has many alternative suggestions about protecting the vulnerable. She’s been saying that for months.

Here’s just one interview

OP I completely understand what you’re saying.

@queenofknives

This. We can't live this way anymore. Social distancing is cruel and a form of torture. I know my own mental health is deteriorating and I genuinely fear what I'll do to myself if I have to live this pointless existence for much longer.

I'm sorry to hear you're suffering so much. I agree it is unbelievably cruel. Humans are social animals - we need each other, we need physical contact, we need social contact - when humans don't have this, we get sick. Isolation is a genuine punishment for prisoners - being forcibly isolated is known to be inhumane. I genuinely don't believe that we can keep going on this way. Even if lockdown was the best way to stop the virus, would it be worth it? Will it be worth the cost to our sanity, relationships, childhood, education and all the rest of it?

But you want to isolate the vulnerable instead of keeping a bit of distance and wearing a mask?

Regarding excess deaths there is one interesting statistic if you go into great depth with ONS figures. Deaths due to respiratory illness are and have been running at the same level as 5 year averages throughout this year. So no excess respiratory deaths apparently. This suggests that Covid isn’t being classified as a respiratory illness and death from or with Covid is classified as some other cause. This has always troubled me when looking at excess deaths. Where are they hiding all the excess deaths? Also we can’t really compare the actual excess deaths until we have a full 12 months comparable data.

Jeez most people commenting clearly haven’t even watched the video. None so blind as those who won’t see. It was very interesting, thank you for sharing OP.

I don’t understand why some people are so quick to want shut down any debate against the current response to the pandemic. This has been the biggest disruption to our lives and civil liberties in living memory. The trade off is not insignificant with the repercussions being felt for generations. We should absolutely ALL be questioning whether the end truly justify the means. These type of decisions SHOULD be subject to significant scrutiny. Just because everyone is doing something doesn’t mean what they’re doing is right!

Such a depressing thread. People who spout this misinformation over and over never seem to be prepared to read the actual science. The GBD has been soundly and robustly debunked, along with its signatories who were basically anyone who fancied signing and making up a name, including Dr Johnny Bananas and the entire first verse of the Macarena. It's laughable.

Please stop going on about deaths with/of. PPS have given links to ONS stats which show 90% have died where covid is the main cause. Why would the government manipulate figures? They don't want to lock down and bugger the economy - think about it for a minute. They are Tories. Why would they suddenly and inexplicably begin prioritising the vulnerable when they have systematically undermined them for years under austerity?

What they are trying to do is prevent NHS - and thus societal - collapse. It's crap. Lockdown is crap and awful for many things but OP, what is the alternative? Do you really think that 'just getting on with it' would go well, with almost 600 died today and hospitalisations rising every day?

It's utterly baffling.

How do you propose shielding the vulnerable whilst everyone else lives their lives? Firstly “the vulnerable” aren’t just a tiny section of very elderly people. Many have jobs which they cannot do from home, careers, and live with other family members, often in houses where they have to share a bathroom and bedroom and where those other family members also have to go out to work or school. What do we do, lock them all away somewhere for months and months on end or longer? With no regard for their mental health or the fact that might mean them being isolated from everybody they love? And who cares for those who need care? Do they have to be locked away from their families too?
It’s just not remotely workable - we are all interlinked. We’ve seen already how when the virus was mainly in the young population over the summer it has slowly spread upwards through the age ranges.

Hidden excess deaths? WTAF

More people died in the same period than in the last 5 years of the same period. £70k from all causes.

Have to hide this thread, OP is spreading misinformation

@Randominternetbitch

This has been the biggest disruption to our lives and civil liberties in living memory.

Maybe your living memory. I still have two living family members who survived WW2 death camps. Being trapped, cold, literally starving and tortured must have felt worse than this. And this pandemic won't take as long. Yes, it's really a shitty time but a bit of distancing and a mask is doable for most of us. If the most of us would just take those extra steps to keep others safe, there might be more room for example for the very depressed to have an extra bubble to help them.

@musicposy

How do you propose shielding the vulnerable whilst everyone else lives their lives? Firstly “the vulnerable” aren’t just a tiny section of very elderly people. Many have jobs which they cannot do from home, careers, and live with other family members, often in houses where they have to share a bathroom and bedroom and where those other family members also have to go out to work or school. What do we do, lock them all away somewhere for months and months on end or longer? With no regard for their mental health or the fact that might mean them being isolated from everybody they love? And who cares for those who need care? Do they have to be locked away from their families too? It’s just not remotely workable - we are all interlinked. We’ve seen already how when the virus was mainly in the young population over the summer it has slowly spread upwards through the age ranges.

But this is what we’ve done! I have a ECV relative who was advised to shield. He lives alone in a small flat, is under lockdown like everyone else, is meant to see one person only in a bubble and first lockdown he was told not to leave the flat. He also has to see a healthcare worker regularly but that’s not really company.

He would much rather a return to normality and no more lockdowns. £ support for the vulnerable too, not furlough for the many healthy who have, bizarrely, been stopped from working.

It osnt the ECV who died, it was the diabetics, heart issues etc.

If I had more time and energy I would dismantle the shocking disinformation on this thread. As it is, I've just reported it instead. I'm not sure if the OP is for real or is being disingenuous, but there are clearly other posters (and god knows how many lurkers) who are actually believing the tripe being peddled, which potentially could cost lives.

Anyone who genuinely wants to understand Covid might start here: www.coursera.org/learn/covid-19

If this thread gets taken down, that’s a very bad sign.

@queenofknives so you have said:

unbelievably cruel. Humans are social animals - we need each other, we need physical contact, we need social contact - when humans don't have this, we get sick. Isolation is a genuine punishment for prisoners - being forcibly isolated is known to be inhumane.

Yet as a CEV person you're saying it's ok for me to be isolated while the world carries on? So is my underlying condition my punishment for some imagined heinous action? Do my children not deserve to see their mother or should they be punished too? Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to go to school? You're once again making idiotic statements

But this is what we’ve done! I have a ECV relative who was advised to shield. He lives alone in a small flat

Yes, it’s obviously possible for some people, but how is it possible for all, or even most? What if you live with a whole bunch of other family members with only one shared bathroom and no spare bedroom and have nowhere else to go? I know Mumsnet is a different world but surely people realise lots of people cannot shield from those around them, or stop going out to work.

This thread most certainly shouldn't be left standing. It spouts nonsense.

[quote rorosemary]@Randominternetbitch

This has been the biggest disruption to our lives and civil liberties in living memory.

Maybe your living memory. I still have two living family members who survived WW2 death camps. Being trapped, cold, literally starving and tortured must have felt worse than this. And this pandemic won't take as long. Yes, it's really a shitty time but a bit of distancing and a mask is doable for most of us. If the most of us would just take those extra steps to keep others safe, there might be more room for example for the very depressed to have an extra bubble to help them. [/quote]
You’re not the only one with relatives who lived through the horror of WW2. We are not at war.

I wasn’t talking about masks and social distancing.

Try digging a little deeper into how this government have been going about introducing new laws which goes against everything our grandparents and great grandparents literally gave their lives for.

@musicposy

But this is what we’ve done! I have a ECV relative who was advised to shield. He lives alone in a small flat

Yes, it’s obviously possible for some people, but how is it possible for all, or even most? What if you live with a whole bunch of other family members with only one shared bathroom and no spare bedroom and have nowhere else to go? I know Mumsnet is a different world but surely people realise lots of people cannot shield from those around them, or stop going out to work.

You’ve misunderstood me. I’m saying his situation is bad and further lockdown will make it worse. ECV can choose to shield as much as they can but they shouldn’t be forced to, which lockdown does to them.

In the case of a family, they need to make those choices. There are people with ECV household members and they may still need to go out to work.