Secondary schools are fucked

[noblegiraffe]

The latest ONS data for infection rates in pupils in Y7-11 shows that they are now nearly as high for university students, the ones who were getting blamed for catching it at pubs and parties.

The latest data for number of cases per 100,000 in each year group looks alarming, even more so when you realise that the latest column is an underestimate. The figures for Y11 in particular are horrendous, and this is a crucial exam year group.

Attendance data for secondary schools is going down each week - 82% according to the latest data (excluding those on half term).

On 22nd October an estimated 557,000 pupils were off school, either isolating, or with covid (this includes primaries, I can't see the data for just secondaries).

On 22nd October, 55% of secondary schools had at least 1 pupil self-isolating due to contact with a case in school.

There is, as far as a I can see, no discussion from those in charge about what to do about this. Schools are a priority, except when it comes to talking about them. Data is hidden, covered up or just ignored. People use arguments about primary schools (parents need to work!) to apply to all ages of pupil.

Secondary schools were set up with 'bubbles'. Risk assessments were based on premise that bubbles would be mixing, and would be sent home if there were cases. This was abandoned a few weeks into term when the DfE elbowed PHE out of the way and took over the the decisions about who would be sent home. Now only 'close contacts' are sent home rather than whole bubbles, which makes no sense in the context of what we know about covid transmission in poorly ventilated spaces with no social distancing. Kids who were told that they could mix 'because they were in a bubble' are now wondering why they're in a bubble but not in a bubble in any meaningful sense.

If, when it comes to any upcoming lockdown, the message is 'schools will stay open' and there is no distinguishing between primary and secondary, and no discussion about how this trend in secondary can be addressed, then be aware that any lockdown isn't going to solve the problem because it's spreading in secondary schools.

PS: I don't want schools to close but they shouldn't stay open as they are because the data shows there's a real problem with as they are. I do want a discussion about specifically secondary so talk about primary elsewhere. If you find the data scary then that's a problem with the situation, not me posting it. I don't want any anecdotes about how your school hasn't had any cases unless you put the word 'yet' at the end of it. If your school has masks everywhere that's great for your school, but the government says their use should be avoided in classrooms and their use in corridors is only mandated in lockdown areas. Schools are not all open in Europe.

Some suggestions: masks, ventilation, review of who is being sent home, regular testing (especially if there are cases), review of fines for pupils who would be safer at home, review of working conditions for ECV teachers, it to be made clear that if a school sends your child home they are legally required to isolate.

[lotusbell]

At my son's school they have had 1 positive case only very recently. They've not made it 'public' which year group, only informed those who need to know. Idea is the whole year group bubble must go home unless they can narrow it down to close contacts. School lunches brought to the specific year group zone and they have just reopened the canteen for snacks but are staggering its use so son in Y9 can only access of certain days of the week.
Stepdaughter is at different school in different town and she's coming to the end of her 2nd year group bubble period of isolation. From what I can tell, their school canteen is still open but not sure if that's all year groups at once. Not sure if it's luck or more astringent rule following? Both Tier 3 areas.

[SauvignonGrower]

I don't think rotas or smaller bubbles are enough to reduce the infection rates. We may need to look at two weeks on, two weeks fully shut. Schools would need to spend the time in school training kids up for working at home.

[JamminDoughnuts]

it is a worry

[Misssugarplum12764]

At the absolute minimum, critically vulnerable staff and students need to be at home. It’s one thing weighing up the inconvenience of people self-isolating and a whole other ball game once you have a member of staff, a student or one of their family is in ICU.

[PastMyBestBeforeDate]

Dd's school is full to bursting so there's no chance of distancing. Very few are wearing masks in lessons. I'm ecv so she wears hers all day. There have been cases in Y11 and there's currently one in her year Y9. Hopefully any knock on cases will have become apparent over half term but I'm nervous about sending her back.

[NoSquirrels]

They could usefully start by admitting that this year’s exam cohort for GCSE and A level won’t be made to take exams - that would take A LOT of pressure off trying to keep them all in school under any circumstances. Hope & blended learning would be much less of a stressful prospect then.

The 2021 exam takers are so much worse off than last year’s- they’d at least had pretty much their full teaching and ‘only’ missed exams. The students in exam years this time missed all last year and keep getting isolated now. It’s horrendously stressful for them.

If the government could sort out the exam testing results shitshow and get a decent system then so much pressure is off.

[Jinx2020]

I do think secondary schools need to close for the month to get this under control or where does it end? However this must be announced with information on exams - the longer schools continue as it is the more unfair exams are with groups out isolating and inconsistent experiences.

I also think if schools close we need to put the same measure in place as Poland (where years 4-8 are now joining secondary's on remote learning). Poland have said people up to the age of 16 will not be allowed outside between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m., apart from under adult supervision. This would ensure hopefully our students are not meeting up when they should be learning. Parents also need to take accountability for their children - keeping them at home and checking in on work.

We need a heads up to schools going off so any worksheets etc can be provided in advance so simple things like printing do not become an added stress for parents or disadvantage students. We also need funding to ensure students have internet access and a device access. Parents have little faith in some of the distance learning that happened in March - schools are now in a much better place and have more robust systems in place and all staff are now trained up in teams / google classroom.

Secondary schools closing also needs to have a specific timeframe - one month perhaps. But parents and teachers need to know when it is ending. And a very clear plan to return to face to face afterwards however with added measures -possibly part time face to face so that classes can be smaller, masks at all times, a plan for when hand sanitizer runs out (this has happened twice and we have had to run to local shops as there has been none on site). I also think block timetabling would help with movement in school - far from ideal but better than current situation.

We also need a competent education secretary ...

[mac12]

One problem is we’re just not grasping the extent to which kids catch & transmit the virus. Large antibody screening survey from Germany found cases in children six times higher than testing was picking up, almost half the kids asymptomatic.
Our symptom based testing system (which is woeful given kids display different symptoms to adults) will only capture tip of the iceberg of the problem in classrooms.
www.cell.com/med/fulltext/S2666-6340(20)30020-9
Keeping schools open as they are will mean a long painful drawn out lockdown

[noblegiraffe]

@Teateaandmoretea

You are wrong OP, only year 11 and above have higher incidence than the national average across all age groups. This bearing in mind they are in school is surprising.

Unfortunately the exam years it doesn’t look grea, however.

You are looking at cases per 100,000 yes? Look at the infection rates from the ONS random testing data which doesn't rely on people actually accessing tests when they are positive.

We know that children more way more likely to be asymptomatic, or have different symptoms to those that get you a test so the most important thing about the graph of number of cases in each year group is the trend.

[MrsDanvers123]

@OverTheRainbow88

How’s this thread any different to all your others?

Can’t you go back and read everyone’s suggestions on all the other ones you’ve created about this?

Because it is quite clear that one thread does nothing to quell the sound of people singing as they push their fingers into their ears and pretend that nothing can be done! The idea that schools are at the epicentre of rising infections is uncomfortable because we have to accept that we and our children are being failed by a government who is intent on scoring political points whilst keeping themselves safe in their ivory towers.

I believe that I and my immediate family are at low risk of death from Covid; however, that isn't the same for lots in my community. Schools are driving high rates of transmission into our communities, and vice versa. Schools are fucked and this means our communities are fucked.

Teachers are not calling for schools to be closed; rather, that the education of our kids need to be made safe. The government has failed to fund schools, has failed to consider appropriate ways of delivering education in a pandemic and has failed to create any trust in any decision that they make. To paraphrase Larkin: They fucked us up, BJ and co, they really meant to, and they did!

[Aesopfable]

what is the point in a lockdown when it's increasing like that in schools.

What is the point of lockdown? Not to get rid of Covid because we can’t so what? If it is to reduce deaths and load on the nhs the we need to isolate the vulnerable not all young people. ultimately we need healthy people (such as young people) to get it.

[PollyPelargonium52]

Ds is year 11 and none of his year got covid so far although a small number from other years but only one or two each time. However the classes have just 20 pupils in each class in total so that will no doubt help.

[noblegiraffe]

We also need a competent education secretary ...

As always on these threads: Where. The Fuck. Is Gavin Williamson?

[Dragongirl10]

Thank you for posting this op, not nearly enough discussion about this imo..

Decisions are difficult, as people need younger secondary dcs in school to be able to go to work, and not fining will possibly leave vulnerable kids not going to school......
But these difficulties should not stop the search for better options that doing nothing.
I am still furious about the stupid lie that children do not transmit the virus, of course they do, they breathe !

I wanted the gov to set up effective home online learning for most, loaning computers where necessary.
Then bringing in to school only important exam year students, and teaching them in the biggest halls in each school, spaced as far apart as possible, with all doors and windows open, and dressed in warm home clothes.
Then a mixed age class of the most vulnerable kids, just focussing on core subjects to ease teaching different age groups together. ( I am not a teacher so this may not be possible, just an idea)
All other teachers to provide a full days teaching online.
Also the Government should give the option for repeating a year for the kids who have fallen behind, or coped less well throughout.

I am pretty sure if experienced Heads and teachers got together they could come up with far better than the above, but the Government needed to organise this, (and fund it) with a consortium of Heads and teachers back in the early summer..

I despair at the lack of leadership.
This situation we face now is not a surprise, we knew it was coming.

[RigaBalsam]

@Aesopfable

what is the point in a lockdown when it's increasing like that in schools.

What is the point of lockdown? Not to get rid of Covid because we can’t so what? If it is to reduce deaths and load on the nhs the we need to isolate the vulnerable not all young people. ultimately we need healthy people (such as young people) to get it.

But that was debunked by a lot of Scientists and several have said this morning. Its best to avoid getting it because of long covid and as stated many times the number of women between 20-40 needing oxygen and therapeutics.

[herecomesthsun]

@howsers

If it wasn't because of people like the op then there would be very little talk about education during CV.

I disagree, I would wager a high % of MNs have school aged children so there would definitely be interest.

As a parent I think it has been made very clear that another school closure is not what the gov want & they will try to avoid it.

Will they, however, avoid it by trying to make schools a safer environment?

Or will they just try to force kids back to all catch covid together, by threatening to punish the parents if the kids don't go in? And then appear surprised when the infection numbers keep rising and say we have to have a longer lockdown etc.?

[christinarossetti19]

@SauvignonGrower

I don't think rotas or smaller bubbles are enough to reduce the infection rates. We may need to look at two weeks on, two weeks fully shut. Schools would need to spend the time in school training kids up for working at home.

I think a lot of schools have been doing that and identifying which students don't have access to tech at home etc.

The problem is - as ever - there needs to be clear governmental directives based on data and science and a willingness to review the current demands of public exams.

Teacher assessment 'worked' this year even for public exams. Of course, it pains the DfE to acknowledge that teachers are in a better position to assess their students than some ridiculous algorithm, which is why they'll do everything they can to Carry On Up The Corona.

[BrieAndChilli]

What percentage of positive cases were caught from school? (Not just a child at school who has tested positive but caught the virus elsewhere?)
1 in 6 cases were caught from eating out during the eat out to dine out campaign aparently - didn’t see anyone up in arms saying to closes resturants. In fact I think it seemed most of mumsnet were raving about how much discount they were getting!!

In my kids secondary school there has been 2 cases. Seperate years and obviously not caught at school. No-one else has tested positive (although we are in wales with half term and lockdown so that will hopefully break the chain) but if it was so prevalent in schools being the main spreader I would have expected at least a few children in contact with the affected to have caught it by now.

[MotherOfDragonite]

It's completely insane. The case rates in secondary schools are ridiculous, there's no extra investment for risk mitigation, and parents are literally forced by fines/prosecution to keep sending their children in. Even if they or their children are clinically vulnerable. You couldn't make it up.

Sign the petition to Suspend fines for school non-attendance during Covid-19 & allow parental choice: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551740

(A previous petition asking for the same thing, which closed in September, is being debated in Parliament on 2 November. It would be good to keep the pressure on.)

[noblegiraffe]

I would have expected at least a few children in contact with the affected to have caught it by now.

How do you know that they haven't?

[Aesopfable]

Neither of my kids schools have had to isolate anyone. My friend (different part of the country) has had all her kids home isolating at different points due to Positive cases in school. BUT not a single one of those positive cases were kids - they were all teachers and none of the teachers got it in school.

[marveloustimeruiningeverything]

Our secondary still has a 95% attendance rate and they are only sending 'close contacts' home for the few cases that have popped up. Doubt it's sustainable seeing the numbers going up everywhere around us... and so many of these kids and their families have been out and about in restaurants, pubs, dinemas, legoland, shopping, etc ... all over social media socialising and out ... suspect cases will be going up when they're back in this week. Dreading my boys being sent home when it happens ... especially my year 11. He's been working so hard.

[christinarossetti19]

Without routine testing, like lots of universities and health settings are doing because they have lots of people in them travelling from different places, we have no idea really how many staff or pupils are contracting the virus in schools.

[AldiAisleofCrap]

@treeeeemendous Interesting. One of my dc goes to a school that has had many cases and many isolation periods. The other absolutely nothing. Why is that, just luck?
Most likely because pupils in one school had symptoms and pupils in the other school did not.
That’s why school spread is such and issue and partly due to the difference in positive cases in secondary and primary schools. Many primary schools will believe they have no positive pupils when in reality they do.

[MrsDanvers123]

Actually, to clarify my earlier post where I said that teachers don't want schools to close, I really meant that I didn't want schools to close, but I don't see any meaningful alternative with the current shit show. Whether we move to rotas, or prioritising exam years etc, schools can't and shouldn't continue as they are at the moment.