Secondary schools are fucked

[noblegiraffe]

The latest ONS data for infection rates in pupils in Y7-11 shows that they are now nearly as high for university students, the ones who were getting blamed for catching it at pubs and parties.

The latest data for number of cases per 100,000 in each year group looks alarming, even more so when you realise that the latest column is an underestimate. The figures for Y11 in particular are horrendous, and this is a crucial exam year group.

Attendance data for secondary schools is going down each week - 82% according to the latest data (excluding those on half term).

On 22nd October an estimated 557,000 pupils were off school, either isolating, or with covid (this includes primaries, I can't see the data for just secondaries).

On 22nd October, 55% of secondary schools had at least 1 pupil self-isolating due to contact with a case in school.

There is, as far as a I can see, no discussion from those in charge about what to do about this. Schools are a priority, except when it comes to talking about them. Data is hidden, covered up or just ignored. People use arguments about primary schools (parents need to work!) to apply to all ages of pupil.

Secondary schools were set up with 'bubbles'. Risk assessments were based on premise that bubbles would be mixing, and would be sent home if there were cases. This was abandoned a few weeks into term when the DfE elbowed PHE out of the way and took over the the decisions about who would be sent home. Now only 'close contacts' are sent home rather than whole bubbles, which makes no sense in the context of what we know about covid transmission in poorly ventilated spaces with no social distancing. Kids who were told that they could mix 'because they were in a bubble' are now wondering why they're in a bubble but not in a bubble in any meaningful sense.

If, when it comes to any upcoming lockdown, the message is 'schools will stay open' and there is no distinguishing between primary and secondary, and no discussion about how this trend in secondary can be addressed, then be aware that any lockdown isn't going to solve the problem because it's spreading in secondary schools.

PS: I don't want schools to close but they shouldn't stay open as they are because the data shows there's a real problem with as they are. I do want a discussion about specifically secondary so talk about primary elsewhere. If you find the data scary then that's a problem with the situation, not me posting it. I don't want any anecdotes about how your school hasn't had any cases unless you put the word 'yet' at the end of it. If your school has masks everywhere that's great for your school, but the government says their use should be avoided in classrooms and their use in corridors is only mandated in lockdown areas. Schools are not all open in Europe.

Some suggestions: masks, ventilation, review of who is being sent home, regular testing (especially if there are cases), review of fines for pupils who would be safer at home, review of working conditions for ECV teachers, it to be made clear that if a school sends your child home they are legally required to isolate.

[JacobReesMogadishu]

I agree if we’re having a lockdown we need to shut schools as well, certainly secondary schools. Not doing so will mean the lockdown isnt as effective and will need to be longer while the death rate increases and the economy free falls further.

[EvilPea]

Schools seem to differ so much in approach.
I’m in a grammar area so a lot of families have kids in different secondaries.

One is social distancing, specific seats on coaches, open windows, outside lessons, enforced mask wearing, keeping movement to a minimum, no year group mixing. They’ve had lots of cases

The other
No social distancing, no enforced mask wearing, sit where you like on the bus, whole year group photos squashed together, closed windows, no outside lessons.
Yet that one has few cases.

I can’t help feeling some are being more honest than others.

[RigaBalsam]

@Piggywaspushed

brie those stats are crap. Please go over to the data thread, post that and people might (possibly patiently) explain to you why.

Absolutely.

Second this.

[noblegiraffe]

ONS survey data on same set of axes.

[noblegiraffe]

Worth pointing out that the most affected age group also includes sixth-formers, many of whom attend secondary schools.

[motherrunner]

@noblegiraffe

Worth pointing out that the most affected age group also includes sixth-formers, many of whom attend secondary schools.

That fits my anecdata. Yr 12 and 13 have been isolating more than they have been in school this last half term.

[marveloustimeruiningeverything]

I know covid cases aren't counted in the attendance data, but the secondary has had very few absences because of it as well. 3 cases, a handful of kids due to when/where apparently. We've been very lucky ... so far ... that luck will run out. Another secondary school nearby send 3 whole year groups home because of the number of cases and staff out. couldn't provide enough staff to keep them going.

[EvilPea]

@Piggywaspushed

But those classes need educating evil! I cannot believe anyone - on MN or elsewhere- would accept their child in , say, year 9 , not being taught because exam classes ahve been spread out!

Of course they need teaching. I’m saying you put them on part time home and part time physical school.
Part time home can be one teacher to more pupils than in school. It could be online work.

It is utterly shit. It really is. And I’ve been the first shouting about the unseen and unknown vulnerable kids needing to be in.
But the exam years futures are really in the shit and they are more in the shit by unplanned 2 weeks isolations every so often.

The government had the summer holidays to properly fund and sort this completely foreseeable shit show out and they’ve done fuck all.

[psychomath]

I'm genuinely wondering what the government's motive is for keeping secondary schools open full time. I don't believe for one second that it's because they're worried about vulnerable children (socially vulnerable I mean). And it can't really be for the economy if they're trashing everything else to keep schools open, plus most secondary pupils wouldn't need their parents to stay off work and look after them anyway. If they know transmission is high in schools and they want to bring infection rates down then part time school seems like a relatively easy way to do it that wouldn't cost them much... so why the adamant refusal even to discuss it?

I'm not saying part time school is what I want to happen, but I just don't get what their ulterior motive is here.

[Enoughnowstop]

I can’t help feeling some are being more honest than others

Possibly. But I think there is an element of luck in it. My schools has had one member of staff and one student off in the last half term. With luck, both of them had been isolating because of family members testing positive and both tested positive at the end of their isolation - I undesrtsnd at 11 and 13 days after first known exposure. So no ongoing issue in school. Had families kept quiet and sent child in, I suspect things would have been different. It really is dependent on individual circumstances, realising you’re actually ill giving the numbers of asymptotic cases and acting fast enough.

[myrtilles]

School children in France have been wearing masks all day since September and there are more cases there than in the uk. Ventilation has been shown to be the most important measure in schools. I think lessons should be live streamed to vulnerable children or anyone self isolating. Other pupils should remain in schools as if schools shut many state schools will not be doing live lessons and their students will fall further behind. without a full timetable of live lessons Many children would not stay focussed on academic study. I have heard some schools have put in plexiglass screens between teachers and pupils and I would have thought this might help protect vulnerable teachers.

[noblegiraffe]

School children in France have been wearing masks all day since September and there are more cases there than in the uk

France have only been sending home positive cases and not any of their contacts. People were suggesting it on here as a good idea. Clearly not a good idea.

[wuwubaba]

Hi NOBLE my kid is one of the child who has been close contact with this affected positive case at school. He was sitting next to him in a closed bubble.

My son was tested negative. None of the other kids in the same bubble were positive.

There are multiple factors that makes you prone to coronavirus infection, the viral load from the affected patients, your own immune systems, the route it is being transmitted etc, just because you are in close contact, doesn't mean you will most definitely being infected.

I do not know what kind of agenda you are running by creating all these 'closing the school now' threads, but assuming you are a teacher, can't you see that you are being presented as someone who is trying to whip up a frenzy? There are kids who relied on school for some sort of normality in their lives, surely you must realise by now that this virus going to be here for a foreseeable time?

What the school must do right now is to enforce strict mask wearing and hand washing routine. People are not wearing their masks properly, you are supposed to cover both your nose and your mouth, and make sure there's no leak of air circulation from the side.

[CallmeAngelina]

"I think that SATs should be kept this year. Let’s have the measurable data on the effect on children."
There won't be any measurable data that tells us (the general public and teachers) anything other than what the government want to tell us. SATs results are regulated and the pass marks alter to fit the narrative.
Teacher Assessment is the way to go. For instance, I can tell you already that my current Year 4s are absolutely bang on where I would expect them to be in maths. Writing perhaps not, but that's fixable.

[noblegiraffe]

My son was tested negative. None of the other kids in the same bubble were positive.

That's great that none of them tested positive. How did they get tested when you aren't supposed to access a test without symptoms? I am fully in support of testing all kids in a bubble where there is a positive case in order to flush out asymptomatic cases.

I do not know what kind of agenda you are running by creating all these 'closing the school now' threads

I haven't created any 'closing the school now' threads. I don't want schools to close. I made some suggestions in my OP.

[noblegiraffe]

Oh no, the personal insults have started, how will I ever cope? :(

[Piggywaspushed]

That is bang out of line tea.

[noblegiraffe]

Tea only posted that because she didn't like me pointing out the flaw in what she thought was a killer argument earlier on in the thread.

[RigaBalsam]

@Teateaandmoretea

but assuming you are a teacher

She is a teacher, it is really worrying tbh. Thankfully most teachers think education is important.

Bang out of order and personal.

Noble is an amazing teacher and I would love to have her as my dds teacher.

Do not attack because she questions your narrative.

[DumplingsAndStew]

Oh. You mean in England?

[MrsDanvers123]

@wuwubaba

Hi NOBLE my kid is one of the child who has been close contact with this affected positive case at school. He was sitting next to him in a closed bubble.

My son was tested negative. None of the other kids in the same bubble were positive.

There are multiple factors that makes you prone to coronavirus infection, the viral load from the affected patients, your own immune systems, the route it is being transmitted etc, just because you are in close contact, doesn't mean you will most definitely being infected.

I do not know what kind of agenda you are running by creating all these 'closing the school now' threads, but assuming you are a teacher, can't you see that you are being presented as someone who is trying to whip up a frenzy? There are kids who relied on school for some sort of normality in their lives, surely you must realise by now that this virus going to be here for a foreseeable time?

What the school must do right now is to enforce strict mask wearing and hand washing routine. People are not wearing their masks properly, you are supposed to cover both your nose and your mouth, and make sure there's no leak of air circulation from the side.

This is absolutely ridiculous! Are we really at the point where talking about schools and the various issues that are being raised can be confined to a single thread? I am increasingly angry at the blame being laid at the door of teachers and schools during a time when we should be working with clear and transparent guidelines. 'Whipping up a frenzy' - really? What about accepting the fact that we should all be a lot more vocal about the government's fuck ups and begin holding them to account? Noble is doing just this, and if this is the agenda, thumbs up from me!

[RubyViolet]

Noble Giraffe, l really understand your point.
School children and staff are a vector for this virus. We should have shutdown with half term included. If schools had shut a week either side of half term we would have slowed circulation considerably.
Earlier this year we talked of bubbles when we meant smaller class sizes and possibly even halving the numbers in the classroom. Two weeks on and two weeks off as a rolling programme for schools, with the home group being set proper work and/ supported by online teaching would stop the spread within schools in its tracks.
This is the only way to keep schools functioning, why won’t Government even look at this ?? Money ...

[coffeelover3]

in ds school there have been I think 2 instances of cases in his 'bubble' but both times we were told that only the children sitting next to the cases had to self isolate. Which seems a bit weird right.