Why can't people understand.

[Bailey0703]

It's NOT about Covid per se . It's about space !!!

If YOUR hospital has 30 critical care beds ... and YOUR granny /mother /child has ANY emergency that requires THAT bed / doctor ... but can't get in it because some stupid fucker thought THEIR need for going out to meet their mates was more important.. how WOULD YOU FEEL ??

Put yourselves in THAT position. What is YOUR priority ?

Money ?
Income ?
Job ?
Social life ?

Don't know about you lot but I would rather be on the street destitute , if any of MY children's lives were on the line Money doesn't come in to it...

I can say that as someone with no savings and £2.20 in the bank atm ..(renting) .. so no secret slush fund to fall back on ...

But what’s the cut off for “old and frail”?

I think the NhS already have algorithms and flow charts to help them make these decisions. Unfortunately it is something they already have to make decisions about at times.

@whenshewasbad Doctors make these kinds of decisions a lot about withdrawing treatment etc.It would be a combination of factors but for example, most people in care homes are extremely frail (or they wouldn't be there) it would depend on the case but I can't seee any other way out of this. We don't know the facts about, e.g. Bobby Ball, but even with the hospital bed, he didn't survive, very sadly. Lots of people will be in hosp with Covid who docs know will not survive or who might make it through this but with a terrible quality of life after as they are so weak. Perhaps going into hosp in the first place rather than essentially sending people in to die should be considered. That would hugely affect the ability of hospitals to operate and society to function

But what’s the cut off for “old and frail

I don’t know for certain but I would imagine it involves average life expectancy + comorbidities.

In some ways I would respect (but not support) it if some of the incredulous supporters of accepting the natural outcomes of covid were pushing for voluntary euthanasia. Their way involves a particularly nasty, lonely death tying up a lot of resources for a significant number of people. If we’re to accept the death toll then that should be in the most humane way possible.

There was the most appalling Sunday Times expose last weekend on the triage system written by Whitty at the beginning. Wasn't apparently supposed to be used but got sent to all the hospitals anyway and they did use it. Well worth a read if you've got access. It was points based and basically you were screwed if you were over 80 as you wouldn't get an ICU bed. Now, I do know that venting the elderly is generally a bad idea with terrible outcomes but this was denying them ICU care which doesn't automatically mean a ventilator. What ended up happening was that the elderly died on wards whilst ICU beds were not fully occupied. (We started covid with 5900 ICU beds and I think it was about 3800 occupancy at the peak?).

So when Matt fucking Hancock mournfully stood there scarring our children by urging them not to kill granny he forgot to mention that his organisation was doing that all on its own by denying treatment and discharging positive patients into care homes. I will never forgive or forget that.

Even now the bulk of our infections, can't remember exactly but about 75%, are nosocomial ie hospitals and care homes.

The average age of death from coronavirus is about six years higher than the average age of death in Scotland.

The government were expecting a deluge of cases and didn't want the elderly taking up the ICU beds - that's what was expected to happen based on the esteemed wisdom of science. I am appalled at loads of government decisions throughout this but I would have done the same in their shoes with regard to bed rationing for the over 80s in pandemic estimated to kill thousands of people in a short space of time.

Doctors make these kinds of decisions a lot about withdrawing treatment etc.It would be a combination of factors

rocky of course they do. I was assuming you were advocating a change in the criteria. With fewer elderly patients being treated. That was why I was asking how you would judge who gets treatment and who doesn’t.

I agree @Rockyroquero after all, what we saw in Italy indicated an overwhelmed health service. However it did become reasonably quickly apparent that those measures weren't needed but they didn't amend the guidelines. The article spoke to HCPs who confirmed that we continued to deny care even when it was no longer necessary. Wish I could link it but it's behind a paywall. It's utterly damning but mainly because of continued mistakes not the initial response.

Interestingly I was discussing the article with my PILS on Sunday and I was incensed but they were in agreement with the government policy. "Of course you deny care to the over 80's, it's the right thing to do" - they're 86! The elderly have generally made their peace with death much more so than us.

Whenshewasbad - I don't think doctors are making decisions to not admit Covid patients at the moment. I am suggesting they probably should if beds are at a premium. They make decisions all the time not to treat, but not to prevent admission. I think that might need to change. Terrible but what else can we do without wrecking everything for everyone.

@Cornettoninja

But what’s the cut off for “old and frail

I don’t know for certain but I would imagine it involves average life expectancy + comorbidities.

In some ways I would respect (but not support) it if some of the incredulous supporters of accepting the natural outcomes of covid were pushing for voluntary euthanasia. Their way involves a particularly nasty, lonely death tying up a lot of resources for a significant number of people. If we’re to accept the death toll then that should be in the most humane way possible.

What covid has shown that current thought is "alive no matter what." Somewhere along the line in the past ?century we have decided that just being alive is all that matters. I'm not saying there should be no life saving treatment etc but when the outcome is a life of pain, or of misery who are we doing this for? People like Noel Conway who has longed fought for his right to die, who will he be kept alive for? Certainly not himself.

Is it right that currently people are dying alone? Of course it isn't, but let's sort that out rather than just trying to keep everyone alive.

The elderly have generally made their peace with death much more so than us.

Absolutely, I regularly see older people who, whilst not necessarily wanting to just die, are just fed up of living, they've had enough, done everything they want to and feel when it's time, it's time.

Rather be homeless you say?

www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/woman-living-devon-woods-after-4631971?fbclid=IwAR38pW9EW0sD2PT2uyOiPZpTtJi0E7UepM54BwY2MtrCbTo3CgDaOcPRrE4

[quote TheGreatWave]Rather be homeless you say?

www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/woman-living-devon-woods-after-4631971?fbclid=IwAR38pW9EW0sD2PT2uyOiPZpTtJi0E7UepM54BwY2MtrCbTo3CgDaOcPRrE4[/quote]
It's a ridiculous suggestion by the OP. Being willing to inflict a different type of suffering and threat on your child to avoid another.

@Ibake
Is there any way that you could do a screenshot of the article please?

@StarCat2020 I'm really sorry but I've just checked and it's 19 pages long so I'd not be allowed to upload that many images - would take me all week! It's a proper piece of investigative journalism, remember, like they used to do before click bait!

What I have done is attach a screen shot of a 2 page summary that lays the case out so you can get the gist.

@Ibake
You are a legend.

That is perfect, thank you

What covid has shown that current thought is "alive no matter what." Somewhere along the line in the past ?century we have decided that just being alive is all that matters. I'm not saying there should be no life saving treatment etc but when the outcome is a life of pain, or of misery who are we doing this for? People like Noel Conway who has longed fought for his right to die, who will he be kept alive for? Certainly not himself

I honestly don’t think the current policy is ‘life at any cost’. Protecting NHS resources is about a much bigger picture which includes trying to preserve healthcare for all when they need it. The narrative of ‘you’re killing your granny’ is the result of shitty communication from an incompetent government and has badly backfired. Unfortunately people are too busy thinking about that rather than the bigger picture that really does put us all at an increased risk and affects day to day life.

Is it right that currently people are dying alone? Of course it isn't, but let's sort that out rather than just trying to keep everyone alive

Sort it out? What timescales are you working with here because as far as I can tell we don’t have the luxury of the time it would take to ‘sort out’.

@StarCat2020 there are ways round paywalls if you have the url. Outline.com or there are websites that convert webpages to pdfs. I think web archives can sometimes turn up particular articles.

Obviously it’s not particularly moral but sometimes you just want the odd article...

@Cornettoninja
Good idea, thanks

And if any of you have kids with student emails then their student subscription rate is good value. Think I pay about £4 a month and DS even reads the occasional article

@Pikachubaby

Why are you shouting at fandoms on the internet OP

Do you normally rant and rave at strangers? Are you very stressed?

Yes .. I am VERY stressed. My mother has been in hospital with Covid for a week. All seemed fairly easy to deal with as she was on oxygen only.. came off it 2 days ago and looked so much better. Last night she took a turn for the worse and had to be ventilated. A VERY healthy 77 yr old . Still cycled to the shops. Went caravanning with my (now hysterical) fabulous step dad.. had parents that both lived into their 90s.. could of expected to live another 20 years with a good quality of life.

CoronaBollox

Is my child likely to die or be negatively impacted for the rest if their lives if they caught covid 19. Unlikely.

But if you read the OP I said exactly this. YOUR child is unlikely to be affected by COVID- however many many are.. which I understand is not your concern . However - if that same child had (God forbid) some catastrophic accident or non Covid illness that required hospitalisation, but there are no doctors/nurses/beds to help her - the out of control Covid will of had a catastrophic effect on your life.

This , I hope, will NEVER happen to you or your child . However it has a very real chance of happening to someone.

Cornetto I wasn't meaning government policy but prevailing thought throughout the population. We don't like dealing with death, we want people to keep living, but it isn't always like that.

Yes and start looking at a good death, this doesn't take huge things, let family in with full PPE, whatever, but it is absolutely disgraceful that tens of thousands of people have died in the current circumstances /manner.

@SheepandCow

Sorry *@Bailey0703* I only read the first page (only so many erudite 'piss offs' I need to see). You seem to have attracted Mumsnet's most charming tonight.

They think they know more than the scientific and medical experts. Economic ones too - those that can see beyond short-sighted greed of the middle of next week.

We all know that the countries who took effective containment measures now have healthier economies. Fewer job losses.

It's impossible to have a well functioning economy with uncontained Covid.

It's the whiner attitude that puts more jobs at risk. Unlike the roll up your sleeves and get on with containing it Victorians in Australia. Their non whingeing efforts are now paying off.

I should of put it like this.. you are spot on.. x

@Jericoo

Long Covid is no differently to any other post-viral syndrome. You could get that from the flu.

Sorry you are wrong. Post vital syndrome does NOT include sticky blood. BIL has had three strokes since April. Currently using a Zimmer relearning to walk ! Aged 58/9