Why can't people understand.

[Bailey0703]

It's NOT about Covid per se . It's about space !!!

If YOUR hospital has 30 critical care beds ... and YOUR granny /mother /child has ANY emergency that requires THAT bed / doctor ... but can't get in it because some stupid fucker thought THEIR need for going out to meet their mates was more important.. how WOULD YOU FEEL ??

Put yourselves in THAT position. What is YOUR priority ?

Money ?
Income ?
Job ?
Social life ?

Don't know about you lot but I would rather be on the street destitute , if any of MY children's lives were on the line Money doesn't come in to it...

I can say that as someone with no savings and £2.20 in the bank atm ..(renting) .. so no secret slush fund to fall back on ...

The hospitals haven't been as overwhelmed as they expected. The Nightingale hospitals hardly had to be used at all.

That's not to say I don't think people should be careful though of course.

@Jericoo

Long Covid is no differently to any other post-viral syndrome. You could get that from the flu.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/04/long-covid-the-evidence-of-lingering-heart-damage

That's just one possible issue. It's also been found to cause lung or kidney damage, blood clotting, diabetes, male infertility, neurological problems, and more.

"would be barbaric to let this virus free"

How could we live with ourselves. The collective trauma of choosing to just let people die when it could be prevented. It doesn't bare thinking about. I can't imagine telling my grandchildren about the year we decided to sacrafice the lives of thousands to go to the cinema, or to pay our bills. What would they think? The German people were invited to opt in to the idea that the Jews stole their fun, and their piggy banks bloody Jews.......and look how that ended.

We will get through this. But we need to value all those around us. Instead of fearing poverty for ourselves, we need to pull together and do everything we can to support those who fall on the journey. If everyone was prepared to treat others as they themselves would wish for themselves, then we can get through this.

And this bloody government of fools need to stop the household budget analogy they inherited from Mummy. Its amazing how many people cry "but we can't afford it, what about the tax payer" whilst simultaneously saying "if I cant work I'm screwed" so, what are you going to do? decline the help? do you have a mortgage? any other debt? bet you do, because the gap between your wages and the cost of living has widened every year for the past 30 years, and the only thing plugging the gap is debt. So what do you do......you just keep working.

Capitalism was already coming into crisis before Covid hit. GDP was falling in all the advanced nations. 300 trillion dollars of capital sits alongside growing poverty, but cant find investment opportunities. All that wealth at the top that is a surplus so huge and yet people are unemployed and in poverty.

If the health care system collapses, we won't just see poverty and boredom, we will see riots.

@SoulofanAggron

The hospitals haven't been as overwhelmed as they expected. The Nightingale hospitals hardly had to be used at all.

That's not to say I don't think people should be careful though of course.

1. They were needed - but we didn't have enough staff. (We'll have even less staff when more are off sick).

One reason for London's very high death rate (over 6,000 dead) was the overwhelmed hospitals led to the London Ambulance Service temporarily changing its admissions criteria in April. I believe similar happened in Birmingham.

1. The only reason they wasn't an even greater need for them (than already) is because of our restrictions. Our containment measures are very half hearted (hence the prolonged situation) but they did have some effect.

@SheepandCow do you never get tired of pouring scorn and vitriol on so many of your posts? Must be exhausting have to daily do battle with all these thick twats you've still not managed to educate after all these months.

However, I am really going to have to pull you up on something because I see a frequent misuse of this word on MN so if you want to make your point please do it using the correct vocabulary otherwise your posts do tend to lose impact.

Eugenics is the practice of improving the human species by mating people with specific desirable hereditary traits. Therefore clearly has absolutely nothing to do with end of life.

Euthanasia is the practice of intentionally ending a life to relieve pain and suffering.

Geronticide or senicide is what I think you're accusing the PP of? (although I think she was talking about euthanasia.)

Personally I cannot wait to be euthanasia to be legalised after sitting by my mothers bed for 3 weeks watching every single one of her organs fail and knowing she was going to die. I would have signed those papers in a heartbeat and furthermore I know she would have wanted me to sign them too.

But clearly this makes me a bad person in your eyes. I'll get over it.

MiniTheMinx whilst we are staying home and saving the NHS etc what about those people who aren't getting cancer screening, cancer treatment, operations that they need. What about people who have been too scared to go to A&E despite having mini strokes / heart attacks? I think we will look back and see that non COVID deaths were disproportionately high and in the over enthusiasm to protect the NHS (despite having built new hospitals we havent used) more people died.

If people lose their jobs and freedom we will see riots.

@SheepandCow

You keep referring to the NHS in relation to the economy, by suggesting that we’re fools if we don’t concern ourselves with how bad the economy could become if the NHS is overwhelmed.

Where do you think the capital comes from to pay for the NHS? What do you suggest in order to keep the economy running whilst everything is closed down?

I heard on the news today that they think 2/3 business may not survive in the coming months. Just think about that for a minute. 2/3 businesses in Britain may close..... how frightening?! So now tell me me that the economy is going to be ok?!

We clearly can’t contain it. It’s evident in the numbers even in the top tier almost lockdown areas. They numbers haven’t come down significantly enough, I suspect in a way that was hoped.

People are worried about the huge reality of a social collapse.

You have to laugh (better than crying).
A poster thinks the medical and scientific experts at SAGE are 'irrational'.
Scientists... People who base their conclusions on cold hard (very calm) fact.

I think that says it all on what to believe. Wild claims about the experts - worldwide, governments, doctors, and scientists like those at the WHO included. Or a poster having a whinge on Mumsnet.

I agree MiniTheMinx

But I'm not sure any government would have coped or done things much differently. Also Sunaks budget and policy has been quite economically left wing really

Yes @TableFlowerss it's data from the ONS, it was in the Guardian. Unbelievable to think that so many businesses are so financially precarious. The measure they use is less than 6 months of cash reserves. I checked because I thought the headline might have been click bait. 6 months takes us to April so entirely likely that a good chunk of those businesses do go under. Especially if they're a seasonal business and lost their summer.

www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/28/uk-facing-flood-of-bankruptcies-over-coming-months-says-ons

I work near a hospital. It's busy. Non-essential visiting was suspended two weeks ago.

The local alert level is very high.

301 people were admitted into the healthcare region on the 27th, 1998 have been admitted this week - a 38% increase in patients admitted since last week.

The Government Covid -19 experimental service has links for all healthcare data in the different regions.

coronavirus-staging.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nhsregion&areaName=North%20East%20and%20Yorkshire

Oh dear. It's relentless shit tonight.
I wish you deniers were as cute as ostriches. Their lovely little faces.

The NHS. How do we treat the non Covid patients if there's uncontained Covid?

The beds will be full. If there's any spare, it will be too dangerous for vulnerable cancer patients (and any other patient pre and post op). The danger of catching Covid from asymptomatic patients or staff.

Who treats the patients? The doctors and nurses and other HCP will be off sick (Covid, Long Covid, or PTSD).

What we need to do is nip this in the bud. Dragging it out - failing to contain. That's what buggers up the economy.

I'll say it one more time. It's an undeniable fact that the countries who took effective containment measures all now have healthier economies. Pretty obvious why.

The problem with Sunak is he's young and inexperienced. He panicked. Calm foresight was - is - what's needed.

My priority would be health. If I or a loved one wasn't admitted to hospital because there was no room due to Covid-19 patients, I doubt I'd know anything at all about the patients so wouldn't be able to judge them.

I don't see what money has to do with that.

[quote Ibake]Yes @TableFlowerss it's data from the ONS, it was in the Guardian. Unbelievable to think that so many businesses are so financially precarious. The measure they use is less than 6 months of cash reserves. I checked because I thought the headline might have been click bait. 6 months takes us to April so entirely likely that a good chunk of those businesses do go under. Especially if they're a seasonal business and lost their summer.

www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/28/uk-facing-flood-of-bankruptcies-over-coming-months-says-ons[/quote]
I’m pleased that you found that link, because I wasn’t sure where I heard it today. The tv was on in the background but that stuck out to me. I wasn’t sure if it was a topical news speculation or if it was based on true statistics.

Life would never ever be the same if that were to happen.

That would be a worse tragedy for far more people than covid!!

What's so sad is all the businessess facing ruin. In no small part because for the past 9 months we've moaned and whined - no no no we can't we can't we can't. Meanwhile other countries just got on with doing what needed to be done to contain it. They've now been rewarded for their efforts.

I'm no historian, but there's a line of previous deniers. " Burn anyone who says the earth goes round the sun, because it is blasphemous to think it". "It is crazed as well as blasphemous to believe in evolution".

"There is no link with cancer and smoking, nobody tells me not to smoke, and my smoking can't possibly hurt anyone else." "It's stupid to have speed limits, nobody tells me how to drive, I'm a good driver" "Seat belts are stupid, they make cars dangerous, I won't wear one, nobody can make me, it's insufferable to have interference". "Alcohol limits for drivers are ridiculous, I won't reduce my drinking, the government don't know what they are talking about and the scientists are fools, I know I'm a far better driver after having a few drinks".

Next "There's no such thing as climate change, it's a conspiracy, it's a lie, the scientists know nothing, everyone talks rubbish, there's nothing to worry about, nobody tells me what to do, I'll do whatever I want and I don't care about climate change because I don't believe it".

And now "There's no such thing as covid19, its a global conspiracy by governments to oppress people, I'll never believe it, and even if there is such a thing I would never catch it because I'm not a wimp."

Right down to this thread "Scientists know nothing, governments won't tell me what to do, masks make no difference, masks are rubbish, (surgeons shouldn't wear them?)only idiots take any notice of covid 19 rules, it's all stupid, I won't get Covid19 and if I do it won't harm me, it's up to everyone else to lock themselves in solitary confinement, not spoil my right to drink and socialise as much as I want with lots of friends and strangers when I want and where I want, it's only old people who die and they will soon anyway, they probably want to"

I struggle to comprehend why unavailable medical care doesn't worry other people.

But that's exactly what we've had over the last six months. Apart from clear A&E and hospital cases, millions of people have had to go without normal healthcare treatment. This includes countless routine check-ups and screening that can catch and treat serious illnesses at an early stage - illnesses which can and do end up fatal if not detected and treated.

And as for the people with severe mental health needs who have just had the doors slammed firmly in their faces for months? So many of them have felt driven to taking their own lives and those still alive will have suffered long-lasting irreparable damage to their MH.

I'll leave the wannabe ostriches to it. There's no one at home is there.

My personal priority is DS. That means school open full time, allowing to me to work as normal (can't WFH).

@SheepandCow
If you can find a country that is neither has an interesting past with human rights abuses, or is an isolated island that is essentially self sufficient and can operate with closed borders for an indefinite period you may have a point. Unfortunately the examples you keep giving are either isolated islands that Britain couldn't replicate without causing mass starvation or brutal dictatorships that have enacted lockdown measures that would be thrown out of court in a western democracy quicker than you can say lockdown.

Yep @WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll
That's failed containment for you.

Although actually quite a few people have had treatment. It's been varied depending on available (non ill) staff and safe beds. During lockdown especially it was more possible for HCP to treat patients.

Meanwhile countries like Australia, New Zealand, the Isle of Man, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, etc...

...Healthcare operating as normal there. The consequence of effective containment measures.

@fiddlerjo

Op the problem is most people in this country only care about whatever they want and to hell with the rest of us. It's a very selfish country.

Absolute rubbish. The problem is that apparently only Covid deaths mattter now. I have posted before about my friend who has seen her df only once in his care home since March: was told to leave his 90th presents so they could quarantine for 48 hrs and then told there was no prospect of a FaceTime/zoom call on Christmas Day. ‘Luckily’ in her words he has now suffered another massive seizure so his family can now spend time with him despite the fact he will have no knowledge of this but has spent the last Seven months of his life without being able to see his devoted family, Today I also heard of someone in my school year who committed suicide due to a failing business and lack of support from the NHS for mental health issues (at age 50) and my dm has her cousin crying on the phone on her 90th birthday that she would rather be dead than carry on living like this. So yes you carry on thinking that the people who are supposedly suffering are selfish or you could actually contemplate that there are people literally on the edge in this country

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll I have got so many stats on my phone re cancelled and missed appointments but these have stood out to me in the past 24 hours:

Between April and September 94,000 adult MH appts were cancelled.

603 less paediatric cardiac operations, 504 less children received essential radiotherapy and 25,000 less children have received psychiatric care this year.

Source: NHS statistics monthly dashboard.

[quote StatisticalSense]@SheepandCow
If you can find a country that is neither has an interesting past with human rights abuses, or is an isolated island that is essentially self sufficient and can operate with closed borders for an indefinite period you may have a point. Unfortunately the examples you keep giving are either isolated islands that Britain couldn't replicate without causing mass starvation or brutal dictatorships that have enacted lockdown measures that would be thrown out of court in a western democracy quicker than you can say lockdown.[/quote]
You’ve typed what I didn’t have the energy to. Thank you