Why can't people understand.

[Bailey0703]

It's NOT about Covid per se . It's about space !!!

If YOUR hospital has 30 critical care beds ... and YOUR granny /mother /child has ANY emergency that requires THAT bed / doctor ... but can't get in it because some stupid fucker thought THEIR need for going out to meet their mates was more important.. how WOULD YOU FEEL ??

Put yourselves in THAT position. What is YOUR priority ?

Money ?
Income ?
Job ?
Social life ?

Don't know about you lot but I would rather be on the street destitute , if any of MY children's lives were on the line Money doesn't come in to it...

I can say that as someone with no savings and £2.20 in the bank atm ..(renting) .. so no secret slush fund to fall back on ...

*could all not call

But that's a separate set of issues, that's some schools being heavy handed with how they've chosen to operate this last half term and interpret the guidelines.

I've become aware, through reading on here, that the disparity in approach has been huge. It's not right and it's not fair. That's a matter for individuals to take up with their HT and the board of governors.

It doesn't affect me making Sunday lunch for my in-laws as I don't have children in school anymore (just a son getting a shit online uni experience but that's another matter).

@MaxNormal

I'd rather die than be on the streets destitute thanks.

Same

Sorry was typing when you came back to me @3littlewords - sounds like we're both arguing for the same thing really!

I can't tell you how cross I was listening to that guy yesterday basically saying we can't be trusted. Who do they think they are? Same with all the flocking and flouting brigade, the overwhelming majority of people are doing the right thing. I recognise that many on here would say I'm not but I disagree with that because I haven't take any dangerous risks, precisely because I want to keep on seeing the outlaws. I just wish they'd trust us.

It isn't a separate set of issues at all, many people are being told to do/not do something without a choice to protect the elderly and vulnerable. The majority of the time the community adhering to rules or restrictions is not for their personal benefit its for the benefit of others. Would you feel the same if masks became a choice? Or social distancing became a choice?

I can't tell you how cross I was listening to that guy yesterday basically saying we can't be trusted. Who do they think they are

Trouble is not everyone can be trusted. I teach in a secondary school. Based on what some of the kids tell me they and their families are clearly not following any guidance (and we are tier 3).

Their parents have probably done a “risk assessment” for their own lives and decided they will be fine if they catch Covid. I however live with a vulnerable husband and I’m scared I’m going to give him Covid.

People are risk assessing based on their own circumstances. But their actions don’t just affect them, they affect the community they live in.

Re: OP - individualism.

We need to stop this horrible blame culture and stop treating people who have covid as dirty rule breakers.

This. Why would you decide that the people spreading Covid are the ones desperate for a pint? That's just deliberately inflammatory nonsense. People are catching Covid at the supermarket, at work, at school etc etc.

Fgs can people not see the irony in the fact that this kind of statement:

Op the problem is most people in this country only care about whatever they want and to hell with the rest of us. It's a very selfish country.

is constantly being trotted out by frothers on both sides of the fence? Waaah you are selfish because you don't care about people's health! Waaah no you are selfish because you don't care about people's livelihoods! It's not either or. It's a difficult line that must be trodden, and it won't be clear for a long time which decisions will have turned out for the best.

But OP I think what gets people’s backs up is that your laser-like focus on Covid at the expense of everything else is overly simplistic. It is a delicate balance in terms of managing Covid rates, the economy, mental health, social cohesion etc. I just don’t get the idea some people seem to have that a Covid death is something to be avoided at all costs, even if the trade off is more suicide, loneliness, hungry children etc.

Also, I’d be interested to know how many of the ‘stay at home!’ ‘need another lockdown!’ types are this diligent when it comes to trying to prevent other deaths. For example people are dying or becoming homeless right now in Vietnam due to climate change induced typhoons and flooding. Are you avoiding plane travel and meat eating in order to lower your carbon emissions? Climate change is going to kill a hell of a lot of people over the coming decades. But it seems some people refuse to or are incapable of seeing a wider picture. I think because this would be an admission that things are complicated and not the reassuring black and white world you want to see.

@Ibake tbh I think if people were given a bit more choice then resistance wouldn't be as bad, most people are sensible and follow guidelines because they realise the benefits not just because they do as their told regardless. Its the smaller minorities either side who tend to shout the loudest that cause animosity, from those who will never set foot out the door again to those who don't give a stuff and will continue to do whatever they want when they want.

.. but can't get in it because some stupid fucker thought THEIR need for going out to meet their mates was more important.. how WOULD YOU FEEL ??

To start with I wouldn't be so daft or insulting as to judge everyone who was in hospital on a ventilator or in ICU was stupid and picked up Covid going out with their mates.

I caught covid - which did need hospital treatment, albeit not ICU or ventilation - by being in a classroom with 270 young children each week, with no Social Distancing and no protection not by being out partying with my mates. Although we aren't actually supposed to suggest that that's possible!

I find your tone in the OP dismissive and insulting to be frank.

Also a lot of the people who have been in need of ICU beds have been elderly and/or have medical conditions already who most likely weren't out partying with their mates and were just unfortunate enough to catch covid anyway.

We know why restrictions are needed. People might moan about them - that's human nature. But the majority are following them where they can IME. No need for the hyperbole type Op tbh.

Well said @lazylinguist

I agree @lazylinguist. There isn’t a national (or indeed global) agreed stance amongst populations. There seems to be two distinct camps vying for very narrow goals to take precedent when in reality it takes balance of everything to navigate.

Some people seem very reluctant to recognise the bigger chain of events at play and where they fall in it. I find it a sad commentary on society in general personally but accept there are those who think they’re backing the right horse and I’m wrong.

I think the truth is that if we went full defensive or full acceptance we’d have better outcomes than this constant warring over which way is best. It’s not going to happen whilst the stakes are so high though and this is where effective leadership comes into play which we’re lacking.

We need to stop this horrible blame culture and stop treating people who have covid as dirty rule breakers.

---

This!

One of the worse parts of getting covid was telling people.
I knew some would judge me without knowing facts. they'd,assume I got it by being in close contact with a friend or family most likely.

The guilt of phoning school to tell them that I had covid and that I'd been in school for possibly 2 or 3 days with it was awful. I found myself sat in a hospital bed feeling rubbish, but still feeling like I needed to apologise constantly about it.

The guilt of sitting in that hospital bed on an open ward as the nurse on shift came to tell me, as she quickly closed everyone's curtains and the porters swiftly moved me to my side 'room of shame' - double doors on entry, a window to the ward where I could see cleaners coming in to give everywhere a deep clean.

The guilt of phoning our local pub to tell them - the only place outside of work I'd been for ages - to tell them I'd been whilst unknowingly had covid. Fortunately we weren't close enough to other tables for them to be a close contact or risk.

I hadn't had the big 3 symptoms. I wasn't eligible for testing. None of the various medical staff I had seen for the previous 2 days had suspected covid, hence an open ward and the safe zone in a and e. But it didn't stop me from being the one who felt embarrassed and apologetic to everyone when I had it.

I'm still recovering 3 weeks on and still feel like I have to apologise to everyone at work for missing so much of school teaching.

I didn't break any rules. So why do I feel guilty? Mainly through social media and posts like this I suspect!

@WhenSheWasBad I feel for you, that must be so hard living with that fear. I promise I'm not like that and I've cut my cloth accordingly because I too feel responsible for vulnerable people.

They just happen to be vulnerable to things other than Covid. The restrictions have caused a decline in their acuity and their mobility. I must do all I can to improve that. You just need to trust that I, and I can only speak for myself, am not doing anything in my risk assessments that means I've said bollox to the rest of society. Why would I? If I do that I put my PIL's potentially at risk. We do less now in order to know we're as safe as we can be.

YY to the poster who said most of us are treading a cautious centre ground.

@Aragog - I hope you feel better soon! Please do not feel any guilt at all!!! I think your point is very, very important. People keep harping on about track & trace not working properly but many people I know have not downloaded the app. We need to get into a way of thinking that we test regularly and let everyone know we have Covid if we catch it, straight away, with no guilt or shame. Track & Trace should be the backup in the background. We should all feel like posting on Facebook etc that we are positive, is a good thing to do!

The amusing thing about these threads is that if it came down to a roof over your child's head or the life of a stranger, most would pick the welfare of their families.
It's a difficult truth to acknowledge, but it's a truth nonetheless.

@MrMeeseekscando

The amusing thing about these threads is that if it came down to a roof over your child's head or the life of a stranger, most would pick the welfare of their families. It's a difficult truth to acknowledge, but it's a truth nonetheless.

Agreed. The lives of strangers in no way trumps my family and never will.

Thanks ibake good luck to your family.

[quote samuraimyths]@Aragog - I hope you feel better soon! Please do not feel any guilt at all!!! I think your point is very, very important. People keep harping on about track & trace not working properly but many people I know have not downloaded the app. We need to get into a way of thinking that we test regularly and let everyone know we have Covid if we catch it, straight away, with no guilt or shame. Track & Trace should be the backup in the background. We should all feel like posting on Facebook etc that we are positive, is a good thing to do![/quote]
Thank you. I'm getting there slowly - still signed off for another week due to blood pressure complications caused by covid but hopefully now in the mend generally.

I was shocked at the guilt to be honest. It was almost instant on hearing the news. It was almost more overwhelming that the concern for my own health (I'm clinically vulnerable, had been careful but now had it and had complications leading to me being in hospital) in the end.

I'm starting to deal with that now, hence posting on threads like this here on MN. Posts like the OP now make me feel angry rather than guilty.

Mind you, not sure how the feeling will be the day I can return to school and see my colleagues, children and parents! Especially as I know that Masks don't work. 10 of us tested positive within 3 weeks, 8 of them after me. I haven't had close contact with any of them before or since, but it still makes you wonder.

I’m sure this is what the government wants. Everyone getting angry at each other for breaking the rules (or even simply being annoyed at restrictions).

When what we should be pissed off with is the governments piss poor performance. If we actually had a decent test track and trace system. With regular tests for hospital, GP and school staff, we would do so much better.

I’m saving all my angry for this governments lousy performance. Mistakes were always going to be make but they’ve fucked up royally.

This is going to play out exactly as it’s meant to so there is no point arguing with people. Completely pointless.

I think it might have to come down to - are we prepared to sacrifice absolutely everything to stop a disease which mainly kills the very old and infirm? The stats are clear. People.who have had their lives and are very frail and old are by far the biggest victims of this. Yes other people are at risk too - but people have always been at risk from infectious disease. The very unpopular truth might be in the end that hospitals cannot admit everyone. Nature might have to take it's course in care homes/ at home with the aid of some medicine from a GP for the very old in order to allow society to continue and younger people to get healthcare in any form for any cause. It's awful and no govt wants to take the unpopular decision but the whole world stopping to make sure there enough hospital beds for people who are very old is not sustainable. It's not a new thing. Horribly people are denied life saving drugs due to cost. This is essentially the same thing on a bigger scale. Awful but we might need to wake up to this... We cannot admit attempt to save every old and frail person from Covid by stopping society. It is a fact of life that we all die from something. We need hospitals to treat younger people who still have life ahead of them and we need to make sure that life is worth living for them with jobs, a life, good mental health.

We cannot admit attempt to save every old and frail person from Covid by stopping society

But what’s the cut off for “old and frail”?

Bobby Ball has just died of Covid. He was 76 but couldn’t be described as frail at all. Should he have not been admitted to hospital? What age are we counting as old and frail?

@MrMeeseekscando

The amusing thing about these threads is that if it came down to a roof over your child's head or the life of a stranger, most would pick the welfare of their families. It's a difficult truth to acknowledge, but it's a truth nonetheless.

Agree but I think the fundamental disagreement is about how we achieve that. I believe keeping rates of infection low are the best way to go about that whereas other people disagree.

I don’t believe that most people are actually that concerned about a lot of elderly people dying on a large scale (individuals are different and many people will be concerned about direct family and friends). Old people have a tendency to die - that’s just how it is.

What I’m concerned about is the sheer amount of people getting ill and dying within in a short space of time. That’s what directly threatens my families safety and the economy. If all the people who were going to die from covid just dropped dead we wouldn’t be having this conversation, as things stand they don’t and tie up health resources from ambulances to beds for weeks. The point where if my family was in a car crash we wouldn’t be attended quickly is the point I stop putting my children in the car for unnecessary journeys. That directly impacts the economy and consumer spending.